Honda EU2200ic Companion reverse polarity

[wsmurdoch]

There is a reason for ABYC E-11 11.5.5.2.3 "The generator neutral shall be grounded at the generator. (See DIAGRAM 2 or DIAGRAM 4.)"

Many electrical items have their metallic cases connected to the non-current carrying green (or green/yellow) wire. Without the connection between the neutral and ground at the generator a fault current path to the metallic case would go undetected. With the connection between the neutral and ground a short circuit would exist and the fuse or circuit breaker would open warning you that the fault existed.

(The quoted ABYC requirement above should be read in the context of the entire section as there are exceptions.)

Bill

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

There is a reason for ABYC E-11 11.5.5.2.3 "The generator neutral shall be grounded at the generator. (See DIAGRAM 2 or DIAGRAM 4.)"

Many electrical items have their metallic cases connected to the non-current carrying green (or green/yellow) wire. Without the connection between the neutral and ground at the generator a fault current path to the metallic case would go undetected. With the connection between the neutral and ground a short circuit would exist and the fuse or circuit breaker would open warning you that the fault existed.

(The quoted ABYC requirement above should be read in the context of the entire section as there are exceptions.)

Bill

Let’s go that way (again) and assume we’re going to experience an appliance failure like that while running our Honda generator at anchor. If both hot and neutral would short to the metal case then we have a short and the regular breaker would flip. If only one of the two shorts to the case, how is that going to electrocute someone who touches the metal case? Where is the return path to the generator?

Normally, ashore or while on shore power without isolation transformer, you can get electrocuted when you touch the metal case and something else that is grounded, because shore power has a path to ground. But the Honda doesn’t.
So, even in the unlikely event of such a fault occurring, what happens is the same as when a bird sits on a power line: nothing.

Honda engineered their generator to be as safe as possible, even on boats with faults in their wiring or appliances.

[wsmurdoch]

My first argument is an appeal to authority. The standards state, "They [the standards] are believed to represent, as of the date of publication, the consensus of knowledgeable persons, currently active in the field of small craft, on performance objectives that contribute to small boat safety." Leaving the neutral conductor un-grounded is in contravention to those standards and opposite to the consensus of knowledgeable persons.

Second, if as the standard requires, the generator neutral is grounded at the generator, and if a fault occurs in the circuit raising the voltage of the grounded case of an appliance above the neutral, a large current will flow from the hot conductor thru the case and grounding conductor to the neutral at the generator opening the fuse or circuit breaker in the hot wire of the circuit thus removing the fault and giving prompt warning of its existence. If the neutral is not grounded, the fault will continue to exist undetected, and a voltage (with respect to the neutral) will be present on all the equipment on the boat to which a green wire is attached.

Third, Honda contemplated the necessity of grounding the neutral of their EU2000i Companion generator. The the fact that the neutral is not grounded at the generator is discussed in the owners manual on pages 18 and 42. Among other things it says, "Before using the ground terminal, consult a qualified electrician, electrical inspector, or local agency having jurisdiction for local codes or ordinances that apply to the intended use of the generator." I believe that ABYC E-11 applies to the use of the generator on a boat.

Fourth, in my particular case connecting the neutral and ground conductors at the generator cleared both my reverse polarity alarm and the alarms on my galvanic isolator. I did it last year with a plug with its neutral and ground blades connected together installed in the 125V/20A outlet of my Honda EU2000i Companion.

Bill

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

My first argument is an appeal to authority. The standards state, "They [the standards] are believed to represent, as of the date of publication, the consensus of knowledgeable persons, currently active in the field of small craft, on performance objectives that contribute to small boat safety." Leaving the neutral conductor un-grounded is in contravention to those standards and opposite to the consensus of knowledgeable persons.

Second, if as the standard requires, the generator neutral is grounded at the generator, and if a fault occurs in the circuit raising the voltage of the grounded case of an appliance above the neutral, a large current will flow from the hot conductor thru the case and grounding conductor to the neutral at the generator opening the fuse or circuit breaker in the hot wire of the circuit thus removing the fault and giving prompt warning of its existence. If the neutral is not grounded, the fault will continue to exist undetected, and a voltage (with respect to the neutral) will be present on all the equipment on the boat to which a green wire is attached.

Third, Honda contemplated the necessity of grounding the neutral of their EU2000i Companion generator. The the fact that the neutral is not grounded at the generator is discussed in the owners manual on pages 18 and 42. Among other things it says, "Before using the ground terminal, consult a qualified electrician, electrical inspector, or local agency having jurisdiction for local codes or ordinances that apply to the intended use of the generator." I believe that ABYC E-11 applies to the use of the generator on a boat.

Fourth, in my particular case connecting the neutral and ground conductors at the generator cleared both my reverse polarity alarm and the alarms on my galvanic isolator. I did it last year with a plug with its neutral and ground blades connected together installed in the 125V/20A outlet of my Honda EU2000i Companion.

Bill

So Bill, without that plug, did your breaker trip? Do you disagree with me that when the breaker trips, that there is a wiring fault? Last but not least, isn’t the Honda generator a portable unit, exempt from said ABYC recommendations? There are many cases made for non polarized systems and all manufacturers provide for that.

[wsmurdoch]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

So Bill, without that plug, did your breaker trip? Do you disagree with me that when the breaker trips, that there is a wiring fault? Last but not least, isn’t the Honda generator a portable unit, exempt from said ABYC recommendations? There are many cases made for non polarized systems and all manufacturers provide for that.

Q1. Without the plug (or for that matter with the plug) I never had a breaker on my panel trip. Of course I never had a fault to ground on my boat while I was using the generator. I was using the Honda generator in our marina where we had significant damage from Hurricane Florence and no mains electrical service. It was January 2019, and I was heating and lighting the boat as we got ready to leave for the Bahamas. As I said, I had alarms from the reverse polarity lights on my panel that work like the small neon light plug-in A/C circuit testers and alarms from the monitor on my galvanic isolator. Grounding the neutral at the generator as the ABYC recommends removed those alarms.

Q2. When a breaker trips, it is because of a high current flow. If the neutral is not grounded, a fault to a grounded appliance case will not trip the breaker because there is no conductive path from the appliance case back to the generator neutral. If the neutral is grounded at the generator, a fault to a grounded appliance case will trip a breaker in the circuit because there is a low impedance path through the ground wire to the neutral at the generator.

Q3. As best I can tell the ABYC makes no exemption for a "portable" generator. I searched the entire E-11 document for the word "portable" and did not find it. I do know that they require a connection between the neutral and ground for shore power (which is done upstream of the shore power cord), an isolation transformer, a polarization transformer, a generator, and an inverter.

Don't beat dead horses. I don't think I will change your mind, nor will you change mine. I do think that we have both done a good job of stating our respective cases which should be of use to those who may still be reading this. They are free to do as they wish with their own Honda EU2000i Companion generators. I have enjoyed the discussion. It has filled some time as we prepare to leave North Carolina for the Bahamas again this year (with mains electricity). Fair winds.

Bill

[s/v Jedi]

Q1: I’m not trying to argue with you. SailorBoy1 wrote that his breaker trips (elci trip coil between neutral and ground) because of the ungrounded Honda, which I responded to that it is not the Honda, but an isolation fault in his wiring. You then seemed to support the idea that it was the Honda as well, but now it’s clear that was just miscommunication and you agree that SB1 has some wiring problems to figure out.

Q2. Yes of course. Let me elaborate. The whole idea about the problem of a short to the case of an appliance is that the user could touch that case while concurrently touching something else that is grounded, like a faucet or a sink or a wet floor etc. and they get electrocuted. The reason that this can happen is because the grid is polarized with neutral bonded to ground.
When you seize doing that, then you take away the reason to create a safety measure and thus you can simply ignore it... like we do for double insulated appliances as well. When you run the Honda ungrounded and non polarized, you can not get electrocuted from touching appliances.

Q3. ABYC concerns installations aboard boats. A portable Honda is not part of the boat’s electrical installation (a fixed genset is), it is an ad hoc, grab and move where needed power source, as safe as possible for every possible application incl. aboard boats.

On the alarms: sure, to silence alarms and turn off error lights, the plug you use is okay. But how are you going to remember to remove it? The plug certainly is not ABYC approved and will cause problems when connecting to many shore power setups I’ve seen. It should pop the elci though...

[thereefgeek]

But sailorboy has 16K posts. That must mean that he knows what he's talking about, right?
The Honda is meant to be a temporary solution to lack of sun, wind, motoring, etc.
Do what you gotta do, and make it work...

[sailorboy1]

I am just a fat man hiding in his parents basement.

But the basement came wired from the factory the way it is. I checked with my parents and they say they aren't interested in debating basement wiring with basement experts. Apparently the basement all works just fine.

[sailjumanji]

Hmmm, we have a 2019 Seawind 1160 Lite that has shore power and air conditioning. Also have a 2018 Honda 2200 companion generator. Several times on our cruise in 2019 we used the generator, with a shore power cord running from the gen to the inlet receptacle on the boat. We do not get reverse polarity light on the panel. Nor do we when we are hooked to shore power.

We previously had a 2002 Seawind 1000 with air con. Used a 2009 Honda 2000 to power that air con on occassion, and still no reverse polarity issue. I installed the shore power system myself on the Seawind 1000, to ABYC instructions and standards. Seawind factory did it on the Seawind 1160, in Vietnam factory. Wires on the newer boat are different color scheme, supposedly European standard.

[s/v Jedi]

My boat doesn’t even check for reverse polarity. What comes in goes straight into an isolation transformer which doesn’t care as long as it can build a magnetic field

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by wsmurdoch

(The quoted ABYC requirement above should be read in the context of the entire section as there are exceptions.)

Bill

Bill sorry but the ABYC is a conglomerate body of builders of boats that make recomendations. They are not requirements.
Lastly a honda portable generator is not covered by the ABYC recomendations because it is not an installed system on the vessel

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

My boat doesn’t even check for reverse polarity. What comes in goes straight into an isolation transformer which doesn’t care as long as it can build a magnetic field

My generator just goes to the battery charger .

[CharlieJ]

@newhaul #26

Bill sorry but the ABYC is a conglomerate body of builders of boats that make recomendations. They are not requirements.

You are terribly uninformed about the make up of the ABYC Project Technical Committees. Suffice it to say that they are comprised of volunteers from boat builders, component manufacturers, surveyors, technicians, the USCG, UL, etc. The ABYC staff works hard to ensure that no single segment is over represented.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@newhaul #26


You are terribly uninformed about the make up of the ABYC Project Technical Committees. Suffice it to say that they are comprised of volunteers from boat builders, component manufacturers, surveyors, technicians, the USCG, UL, etc. The ABYC staff works hard to ensure that no single segment is over represented.

Charlie as a retired shipwright I know full well what the ABYC is and you seem to have missed the point of my prior post.

They are not a governing body. They make recommendations. That's all they are not actually requirements . Never said they don't do good or make a lot of good recommendations .

Fact is still they are not a governing body.

[s/v Jedi]

So are the USCG, UL etc. contributing members? I thought all the ABYC funding comes from American boat industry companies...

It is nice to bring their recommendations as a “safety norm” but the reason they do it is to cover their @sses with their products.

I know there are well willing volunteers and workgroups etc. and am sure they get a little room for innovation. But on certain issues they lag the rest of the world by years.

If one follows ABYC recommendations then the results will be safe, I agree, but installations done conform other standards maybe just as safe or even safer.