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Bash · 08-02-2011, 21:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Minggat

The lighter than air quality of hydrogen makes it more attractive than propane in my book.

For use in a stove, perhaps. For use in a fridge (refer back to the OP), let's not forget that propane refrigerators don't make sense on a boat.

**atoll** · 08-02-2011, 21:23

hydrogen,next to oxygen being one of the more common elements available on the planet would be an ideal fuel source.

if you can find a way of using it succesfully,please post on the site,then we can all retire with billions and be happy that we have solved the worlds energy needs.

here on CRUISERS FORUM........

daddle · 08-02-2011, 22:21

I use hydrogen on my boat for cooking. It comes conveniently packaged in a can with some carbon atoms for stability: C3H8....propane. My engine runs on hydrogen too. Conveniently packaged with some carbon for safety: C12H23...diesel.

beau · 08-02-2011, 23:19

You can make a hydrogen generator using Aluminium and Caustic soda the caustic soda is actually a catalyst and does not need replacing.
The aluminium can be from aluminium cans etc.
The only issue is that the aluminum in large pieces oxidizes on the surface.
You need to grind the aluminium into small pieces or have a revolving drum with sand to expose the raw aluminium surface to the caustic soda.

Google it, you will find many examples, out there.

I think it is very feasible as long as you can find a cheap source of aluminium,which is really not that difficult.
An you can make the hydrogen as you need it, with no need for storage.

We used to do it to fill ballons with hydrogen.

cal40john · 09-02-2011, 00:09

Can you ask your friends how much electricity it takes to run their hydrogen generator. Amps per BTU would be appreciated. As someone else alluded, I think that the amount required will not be worth it on a boat. Also any usable amount of hydrogen stored would have to be in a high pressure contaner. What are your friends using as a compressor, and how much power does that take?

Here's a nice article about the differences in the fuels.

http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogen...pdfs/45408.pdf

Here's how to make hydrogen burners for your propane BBQ grill.

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Barbecue.pdf

**Jim Cate** · 09-02-2011, 00:18

OK, guys, reality check time:

Hydrogen is indeed far more dangerous than propane. Two reasons: it is not easily liquified, so if stored, must be at high pressure. It is also a very very small molecule, so it leaks through remarkably small fissures, with obvious results. Secondly, it has the widest range of explosive limits of any normal fuel gas. That is, it will burn or explode over a very wide range of concentrations. To wit, lower and upper explosive limits in % concentration in air:

Propane: 2.1% to 10.1%
Gasoline: 1.4 % to 7.6%
Kerosene: 0.7% to 5 %

and Hydrogen: 4% to 75% !!!!!!!

This means that it is FAR more likely to burn or explode in a leaking situation than any of the common fuels.

The idea of a chemical reactor to generate Hydrogen gas on an as required basis is hard to visualize, since ones requirements change pretty rapidly, say as you are cooking dinner, and controlling a chemical reaction with aluminium scraps will have significant time lags in production. Pretty silly idea IMO. Making and storing the gas will require fairly sophisticated compressors and tanks, piping and valves.

Come on, guys, I think we have better things to think about...

Cheers,

Jim

**s/v Jedi** · 09-02-2011, 06:27

I think it's time to start stating reliable, secondary sources for comments like "it's 1000 times as likely to result in disaster" etc. Some numbers mentioned are actually good, like you need almost double the concentration in the air before it becomes an explosive mixture.

If you don't even want to think about using hydrogen for anything then you also shouldn't use propane, butane or alcohol stoves because horrible accidents happen with all of these. Diesel fuel either directly (diesel-stoves) or indirectly (electric stoves) will probably always be the safest.

The cost comparison with propane does make sense for cruisers who are always near propane filling stations. But that doesn't mean you should post that it's madness to look at alternatives because others might be unable to get their bottles filled or only at very high cost and ridiculous waiting times (like ocean-freight bottles to where they can be filled and back).

There are 16 or so hydrogen filling stations in the LA area and the first hydrogen internal combustion engine was build in 1807. It can be done, they are doing it, and we should keep a keen eye on it

ciao!
Nick.

**David M** · 09-02-2011, 07:39

There needs to be a really good reason or reasons why hydrogen is better option than propane to justify generating and storing hydrogen. So far, I don't see any really good reasons.

Cavalier · 09-02-2011, 12:10

Hate to be a cynic but:

78% of produced Hydrogen on the planet currently comes from the processing of Natural gas. It's great to think about a hydrogen economy, but until the stuff doesn't come from fossil fuels, or is not produced from electricity which is inefficiently transmitted and produced from fossil fuels then there's little point to call it an environmentally sound option. Your hydrogen car might seem clean, but the fuel you're burning created more pollution in it's making than your gasoline driven belcher ever did, it just happened in someone else's city.

However, if you manage to produce, store and harness the power of hydrogen from the electrolysis of the water you've produced via your water maker by only using the power from your wind generator and solar cell, then well done! You will have gone some way to offsetting the colossal amount of filthy energy that was expended in creating all of the equipment you're using!

It's worth a try though : so good luck in your endeavor.

bstreep · 09-02-2011, 12:21

Do not underestimate the "hydrogen molecules are very small" aspect of this discussion. Hydrogen is so small that it will leak out of a steel storage tank. It will leak at fittings that would normally be fine for propane or butane. This is one of the big challenges for automotive use - it's just so much harder to handle.

**David M** · 09-02-2011, 12:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by bstreep

Do not underestimate the "hydrogen molecules are very small" aspect of this discussion. Hydrogen is so small that it will leak out of a steel storage tank. It will leak at fittings that would normally be fine for propane or butane. This is one of the big challenges for automotive use - it's just so much harder to handle.

The fact that when it leaks it rises makes it safer. Vents in the upper side of closed compartments will need to be provided.

What is the energy density of compressed hydrogen versus the energy density of liquid propane? (stored heat energy per unit of volume)

Edit: found it. The energy density of hydrogen is far above propane it seems.

Bergovoy · 09-02-2011, 12:44

i am sure that hydrogen will become a feasible fuel source sometime in the future.. And i am sure there will be some tinkerers and startup companies that will push thru some innovative products and designs, but ultimately, no matter how safe they declare it, It wont be until they design and build a few models and put them into production and distribution and get feedback from probably hiccups in the road...

so, until then we can choose to be guinea pigs or wait patiently...

Captain Bill · 09-02-2011, 12:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by David M

The fact that when it leaks it rises makes it safer. Vents in the upper side of closed compartments will need to be provided.

What is the energy density of compressed hydrogen versus the energy density of liquid propane? (stored heat energy per unit of volume)

Edit: found it. The energy density of hydrogen is far above propane it seems.

I think you're misreading the graph. The Energy/volume is the Challenge Sailcloth Homeport axis and propane is far above Hydrogen. In energy density/weight hydrogen wins by far.

**GordMay** · 09-02-2011, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain Bill

I think you're misreading the graph. The Energy/volume is the [vertical] axis and propane is far above Hydrogen. In energy density/weight hydrogen wins by far.

Thank you Captain Bill.