Impossible to Fix Westerbeke? 7.6BTD mocks all repair efforts!

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by Tspringer

We already have a much used Honda EU2200i. It is the only reason we were able to salvage our season in the Bahamas this past winter.

Regardless of what happens with the Westerbeke we are getting another companion Honda. That way we have a backup and we can run them together to get 4kw total so it speeds up charging and can charge plus run the watermaker at the same time (I hope).

While I want the Westerbeke to be working correctly there is no way we will ever trust it again. Based on the absurd amount of online reading I have done trying to figure this crap out, my opinion of Westerbeke is that in truth anyone is better off without. Any boat with a Westerbeke would be automatically eliminated as a potential purchase for me.

Terry

Terry, I understand your frustration with your Westerbeke Gen set, but honestly, this kind of unsolvable problem can happen to any marine mechanical device. Certainly all engine or gen set types can be susceptible to this kind of issues. The fact that many have does not, in my opinion, point out any inherent weakness or deficiency of Westerbekes (I do not own one, mind you).

You've stated you'd like to fix it. I can understand that. I don't like to carry around stuff that is not working.

I think that understanding what is happening critical. Is it fuel, temperature or electrical? How to determine which? (we assume you have compression).

First of all the electrical is easiest. The only electrical event which would stop your engine, ultimately, is the engine shut down circuit, which appears to be a solenoid which requires electricity to keep the engine running. Electricity which can be interrupted by any of several switches. So bypass the whole lot. Put in a temporary jumper wire from the battery to that solenoid. As long at that solenoid stays energized then it cannot stop the engine. Check this to eliminate or confirm this potential source.

Next, Temperature: Since you have already gone down this path you probably don't have much to learn, but if there is water and no hot spots detected by your infrared thermometer it seems unlikely that this is the problem. Anyhow, even if the engine is getting hot it would have to be manifesting itself in the shut down circuit.

Finally, Fuel: Mechanical fuel pump, plugged filters, You might have to find some way of verifying that the injection pump is still sending fuel to the injectors you might have to be creative on this one. By the way, most fuel restriction related shutdowns are gradual; the engine dies slowly. It seems like yours is sudden.

I'll add this: On your stop circuit you have three switches. If any of them opens it stops the engine. Put temporary light bulbs across the lugs on all three switches. If any of them lights up, that is the one which is opening and causing the shut down.

I wish I was there to help because this really seems like an interesting puzzle, but of course the fun has long ago gone out for you, I understand

[Bycrick]

NB. It’s a RUN solenoid, not a STOP solenoid. It has to be held engaged for the motor to run. And it can draw substantial current, especially when pulling in. In fact, it has a built-in switch that reduces the required current after it has FULLY pulled in. If that switch were intermittent …? The switch IIRC is accesible and testable if you dismount the solenoid. And very important, if you ever move or dismount the solenoid, you have to make sure that the linkage to the fuel pump is properly adjusted. If the solenoid can’t pull in far enough to engage the switch, the motor will run until the solenoid burns up. Don’t ask me how I know this.

[Madehn]

At this point I would be tempted to replace all of the wiring with fresh and with sealed heat shrink connectors. Also look closely at the run solenoid and it’s connections as well as connections at the start switch. Remember these units run in a very hostile environment for electrical connections. If you have jumpered around all of the switches to no result then jumper around the start switch to run solenoid. If that works the go ahead with wire replacement. Take it slow and calmly. I have threatened many of my mechanical issues with some unbelievably imaginative curses over the years but have yet to find the magic words that fixed the issues. You CAN fix this thing and when done will be better than new 😀😀😀

[Sailshabby]

Originally Posted by Madehn

At this point I would be tempted to replace all of the wiring with fresh and with sealed heat shrink connectors. Also look closely at the run solenoid and it’s connections as well as connections at the start switch. Remember these units run in a very hostile environment for electrical connections. If you have jumpered around all of the switches to no result then jumper around the start switch to run solenoid. If that works the go ahead with wire replacement. Take it slow and calmly. I have threatened many of my mechanical issues with some unbelievably imaginative curses over the years but have yet to find the magic words that fixed the issues. You CAN fix this thing and when done will be better than new 😀😀😀

And cost more than a new one, but for God’s sake, don’t stop now! If you set up a GoFundMe page, no doubt all of us hanger’s on would chip in! 😉

[Tspringer]

Ok.... back at the repair attempts.

I replaced the exhaust temp sensor and the thermostat. I did make a focused effort on trying to "burp" any air from the cooling system. Previously replaced the engine water temp sensor and the oil pressure sensor.

No difference.

The generator fires up just as it should. It exactly as it has always run. It develops power exactly as it should. After 13.5 minutes this time it automatically shut down.

Water gushes from the exhaust. The exhaust elbow is not even hot. I see no indications of any leaks or issues anywhere. My FLIR camera does not indicate any overheating or other issues. The genset has less than 10 hours running on every filter that exists on it.

To those who suggest an intermittent short somewhere in the wiring harness that somehow never effects the startup or initial running of the generator but without fail always causes it to shut down between 12 and 15 minutes after it starts.... you may be correct. But I am not going to dig out and replace the entire wiring harness just to test this theory. The wires at the genset panel at the nav station are run in a super heavy duty conduit. For much of the electrical wiring run, nothing can be observed. Replacing this entire harness would cost $$$$ and would be a huge job with the most likely outcome being no change.

So at this point I am done. There is no professional help available. Every diesel mechanic within 200 miles is booked up for months. I have no idea what to even suspect at this stage so throwing more parts at it is a waste.

We are leaving the marina later this week regardless. Our cruising plans no longer involve this generator. We will get the new 2nd Honda and just use that. Maybe someday I will put more effort into this generator but honestly I do not think it is worth the effort. A Westerbeke with 1,000 hours is just worn out and in need of replacement. Lesson learned the hard way.



Terry

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Tspringer

To those who suggest an intermittent short somewhere in the wiring harness that somehow never effects the startup or initial running of the generator but without fail always causes it to shut down between 12 and 15 minutes after it starts.... you may be correct. But I am not going to dig out and replace the entire wiring harness just to test this theory. The wires at the genset panel at the nav station are run in a super heavy duty conduit. For much of the electrical wiring run, nothing can be observed. Replacing this entire harness would cost $$$$ and would be a huge job with the most likely outcome being no change.

Some posts back you said you were going to make some jumpers to test the various stops - did you do that? I'd use a jumper to bypass various sections of the run circuit. If you get it to keep running after 15-20 mins, you'll know the bad section, and can possibly narrow it down from there, and replace the offending wires, connectors and all.

[Sailshabby]

Originally Posted by Tspringer

Ok.... back at the repair attempts.

We are leaving the marina later this week regardless. Our cruising plans no longer involve this generator. We will get the new 2nd Honda and just use that. Maybe someday I will put more effort into this generator but honestly I do not think it is worth the effort. A Westerbeke with 1,000 hours is just worn out and in need of replacement. Lesson learned the hard way.

Terry

Two things: You should be aware that we, The Forum, have taken a double secret vote, and have overwhelming decided you must continue troubleshooting the problem before you can leave. Second, you’ve been nominated, seconded, and elected as the Official Westerbeke Generator Subject Matter Expert. As such, your email address has been forwarded to all subscribers.

Enjoy your trip. You’ve certainly earned it!

[Tspringer]

Originally Posted by Lodesman

Some posts back you said you were going to make some jumpers to test the various stops - did you do that? I'd use a jumper to bypass various sections of the run circuit. If you get it to keep running after 15-20 mins, you'll know the bad section, and can possibly narrow it down from there, and replace the offending wires, connectors and all.

I did not make jumpers. Instead, I replaced every shut down switch in the circuit. So with all of the shut down circuit switches replaced, all sources for shutting it down have been "jumped" I guess. Not that it matters.

If there is in fact an intermittent short somewhere in the wiring that ONLY impacts the running of the genset after it has been running between 12 and 15 minutes but never when it is first started OR restarted then such a failure is permanent as far as I am concerned. Yes -- when the generator does automatically shut down, you can start it back up pretty much immediately. But it will then shut down again within a minute.

So whatever the issue is, it has no effect on starting the generator either cold or hot. It also has no effect on the running of the generator as it runs perfect. It also produces power perfectly. At least until it decides to shut down.

I could see this going on for years and more $$$ being spent on attempts at repair than one would spend simply buying a brand new Northern Lights and having it installed instead. I am not doing that. Simple and rock solid reliable is what I want and that it seems is spelled HONDA.

I do know a very good diesel mechanic in Ft. Lauderdale. We should be down there in late December. I am booking time for him to try and fix it then. His budget is max $1,000. If he cannot fix it within that budget, I will remove it from the boat. Any system that is this complex and prone to such insanely difficult to diagnose failures honestly has no place on a boat to begin with.



Terry

[hpeer]

Terry;

I for one think you have come to a VERY sensible conclusion.

We own the boat for our enjoyment, at least theoretically.

Simpler is often better in oh sooo many ways.

[Lodesman]

Originally Posted by Tspringer

I did not make jumpers. Instead, I replaced every shut down switch in the circuit. So with all of the shut down circuit switches replaced, all sources for shutting it down have been "jumped" I guess. Not that it matters.

If there is in fact an intermittent short somewhere in the wiring that ONLY impacts the running of the genset after it has been running between 12 and 15 minutes but never when it is first started OR restarted then such a failure is permanent as far as I am concerned. Yes -- when the generator does automatically shut down, you can start it back up pretty much immediately. But it will then shut down again within a minute.

I don't think anyone would fault you, if you throw in the towel, but these generators are actually pretty good despite the peccadillos; they're reasonably uncomplicated and fairly easy to fix and maintain by non-experts in remote locations, given a sufficient supply of time, sweat, blood, tears and beer.

The symptoms you describe sound like a textbook bad connection. Loose connection causes arcing or a bit of corrosion creates more resistance, either of which creates heat which leads to expansion or more resistance, either of which eventually breaks the circuit - engine shuts down, electricity stops flowing through the circuit, it cools enough to re-establish the connection and on it goes. Having partially warmed-through, the subsequent time to shut-down decreases.

Anyway another recent thread came to mind: https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...ly-255199.html
Post 7 might be instructive.

[OldGreyB]

Hello Terry,

Like many others I have followed/ contributed to this thread, and really want you to win. If you had been on the East Coast of Australia, by now I would have sailed and anchored near you to assist in fault finding.


In summary you now have a shutdown that is consistent in the 20 minute period. This is not an intermittent fault, as you have stated it is repeatable within a consistent time frame. So it should be able to be located.

You have replaced the water pump, and hoses, confirmed good exhaust elbow water flow: ref Tspringer Posts #113, 114,115,118 .

You have replaced the water temperature and oil pressure switches: ref Tspringer Post #127

You have only not been able to replace the exhaust temp switch: ref Tspringer Post #127

You confirm on running no high exhaust temperature, no high water temperature, good oil pressure of 40psi :ref Tspringer Post #118.

You have a consistent shutdown after 20 minutes : ref Tspringer Post #118

The fuel solenoid has two windings internally, one that actuates when the stater button is pushed and one of lower power that keeps the solenoid closed during the run cycle. Historically the lower powered windings rely on a very good ground and do fail over time.

ref Tspringer Post #129, you pushed the preheat button in an attempt to bypass the shutdown circuit, you reported this did not work, nor as per the schematic, would it. Only the “Start” circuit feeds to the “pull” terminal of the fuel solenoid per the Westerbeke schematic.

So as per capn_bill Post #15 , wingsail Post #136 and Bycrick Post 137, lets make sure the Fuel Solenoid and associated circuits are working correctly. The test below should take ¾ hr.

Refer page 42 of the Westerbeke Maintenance Manual ( Schematic Diagram)
1. Locate the fuel solenoid.
2. Check and clean the grounding connection.
3. The wiring diagram shows the “pull” and “hold” connections, but no wiring colour.
4. We need to identify which is which. Disconnect one wire and have another person push the start button momentarily. If the fuel solenoid racks in, then you have disconnected the “hold” wire. If it does not rack in, then you have disconnected the “pull” wire.
5. Stop the generator if it started.
6. Mark the wires accordingly “pull” and “hold”
7. Reconnect the wire to the terminal
8. With your multimeter on voltage, and with alligator clips on both leads, connect one end to a good ground and one to the “hold” terminal. If this is not practical due to OEM insulation on the lead, build a short test lead with male and female uninsulated connectors, and then connect in line with the OEM wiring and now connect your multimeter.
9. Start and run the generator
10. Note the voltage in the “hold” terminal should be your nominal voltage – 12.6 then to 13.6 volts as the generator engine alternator begins charging.
11. Mark with a permanent marker where the solenoid shaft has moved to against the solenoid body.
12. Watch the solenoid mark, and see if up to and past the 15 minute mark it maintains the same shaft position or if its starts to move outwards ( ie the solenoid windings are NOT holding the solenoid in its full run position)
13. Confirm you have continual 12.6 to 13.6 volts at the”hold terminal”
14. When it trips- what happened first?
a) The solenoid shaft moved past a certain point ?
b) The voltage on the “hold “ terminal went to 0 Volts?
c) None of a or b?

IF (a) then it’s a possible weak “hold” winding, or high resistance in the shutdown circuit.
IF (b) then it’s a possible switch issue in the circuit to the hold winding.

Please try this test and report back on the above to the forum and I will suggest the next fault finding steps.

[Tspringer]

I "think".... it just may be FIXED.

I went to make the jumpers OldGreyB discussed for the fuel solenoid to test the voltage on pull or hold lines....

When I went to pull one of these electrical lines from its connector to install the jumper - as it came out it basically fell apart. The connector fitting itself just fell apart. I had disconnected this before several times and did not note any issues. BUT, no doubt about it this time the connector itself - a bullet style electrical connector - failed. The connectors are right at the end of a heavy conduit with the conduit holding the connector ends and I think that may have been providing structure to the connector allowing an intermittent failure. When I removed it this time - it completely failed as it fell apart.

So I replaced it, connected the wire and then tested the other 2 connectors (the ground wire also goes into the harness and connects to ground somewhere under the genset).

The generator has been running now for a full hour. Temp guage shows 175 degrees and stable. Everything is running normal.

I am shutting it down and will let it cool off for a few hours and then I am going to repeat the test run.

If it does shut down again, I will proceed with OldGreyB's full test suggestions.


Lodesman certainly nailed it (as did others who suggested a bad connection somewhere) --- BAD CONNECTION. A hidden bad connection. The conduit was helping to hide the connector failure but clearly despite it appearing to be fine it was allowing the connection to break when things got hot.


So if the 2nd test running also goes fine, I will button this thing up and move on to other projects to get us back moving. We will likely still get the 2nd Honda as I most definitely think multiple solid backups to this Westerbeke are a requirement.


THANK YOU to everyone who has helped! It is this kind of online help from like minded folks that honestly makes the entire cruising lifestyle possible for many. Your time and thoughtful efforts are greatly appreciated!!!


Terry

[Bycrick]

Good for you. I spent two years chasing down my corroded wire. Since I fixed it, the Genset has been running for 15+ years. Watch out for the female spade connectors on the various switches, when they get old, they can lose their "springiness" giving often intermittent bad connections in that run/stop circuit. Don’t try to squeeze them. Replace them. Don’t ask me how I know.

[Bycrick]

That circuit probably supplies 5+ amps when the Genset is running; enough to hold in the run solenoid and power the fuel pump. The bad connection you found could definitely heat up after "a while."

[Nord Sal]

Well done! I was going to post that my recent experience with an intermittant connection becoming progressively worse sounded similar to the problem in this thread. Lodesman did it for me (and was helpful with my posts too -thanks again LM! (and others)).



I expect we'll see a successful follow up test.