Integrel - alternative to diesel gen set?

[Adelie]

I didn’t know that. Where is the line that most engine manufacturers use when defining what “High Output” is?

If you are coastal cruising the where authorized repair centers are at hand, such as the US, EU, and perhaps Australia & the Caribbean the insurance policy would be a mitigating factor.

Beyond reasonable access to repair an insurance policy is a false sense of security. Engine damage will involve sailing engineless some distance to a repair facility and time waiting for the repairs. If you are trying to vacate an area due to an upcoming cold or hurricane season this may be untenable.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Yep, as does installing any high output alternator that others have mentioned.

Yanmar have their own factory bracket and pulley kit. This is designed to fit a second large frame alternator so this should not violate the warranty.

[skipperpete]

It’s trickier than it seems to fit that second alternator bracket and I’m not sure they want us to put a high output alternator on it either. Apart from the 4 pages of data in the Yanmar installation manual re front pto there is the requirement to use a keyed crankshaft and pulley as well as an alloy pulley for the second alternator drive. Not all the wide range of yanmar models have a keyed shaft. I replaced the crank in a genset that ran a big hydraulic pump off the front pto that spun the front pulley and burnt the pto extension.

[Paws-on-Paws]

INtegrel datasheet can be downloaded form their website (https://integrelsolutions.com/wp-con...asheet-1.5.pdf)
The latest is dated October 2022 and it lists "supported engines" - Yanmar, Volvo, Beta and Vetus. before we all decide to write the system off due to some past problems, I would be willing to give this system a benefit of doubt. Dont know about the threshold for winning a industrial design award - but why are we so eager to write it off? the product is not a traditional high output alternator.
I can understand the reluctancy in attcahing traditional alternator by adding pulleys at the front of the engine. My understadning Integrel does not add same load as a traditional alternator. Prove me wrong?

[skipperpete]

I’m not at all eager to “write it off” .....I’m actually interested and have read most of the literature and on a larger engine I totally understand, but on a 3JH3 Yanmar or a little Volvo D2, not so much. I guess the developers have put a lot of R&D into designing the mounting brackets and the electronics so perhaps this is an inspired new way to produce 170 amps of DC but at $15,000 entry level for the basic INTEGREL, I’d prefer to stay with the Northern Lights until there are a few more reviews.
I read the same bit about creating more power using less power and I hope INTEGREL is a winner.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Paws-on-Paws

I can understand the reluctancy in attcahing traditional alternator by adding pulleys at the front of the engine. My understadning Integrel does not add same load as a traditional alternator. Prove me wrong?

Unfortunately, you cannot produce 10kw of electrical energy without extracting at least 10kw of energy from the engine. The Integrel “alternator” is a little more efficient than a traditional yacht alternator, primarily because it operates at 48v rather than 12v or 24v, but this peak output is still way more energy than a traditional alternator.

The Integrel system is different from a conventional alternator because it has electronic control mechanisms ensuring large amounts of energy will only be extracted when the engine is capable of delivering this energy, but that does not alter the fact that this energy has to come from a front mounted drive system in a similar way to a conventional alternator.

The concern of some is that extracting this large amount of energy from the front of the engine is imposing undue side loading on components that were never designed to take this load.

[Paws-on-Paws]

"this is an inspired new way to produce 170 amps of DC but at $15,000 entry level for the basic INTEGREL, I’d prefer to stay with the Northern Lights until there are a few more reviews."
Yes, exactly. I should have written out my plan/needs clearly in my first post - I am happy with my current set up, but when the time comes to replace my Northern Light 7KvA generator, I have plenty decisions to make . I could opt to get another marine diesel gen set for (guessing here) AU$25k. Or look for something new, something different. Long term goal is to be more independent - add more solar, get a 12V desalinator etc etc. It is like a big puzzle - I want to reduce depency on diesel fuel, but realistically, diesel will be the fuel for main propulsion for foreseeable future - 22 ton aluminium cat is not ideal for electric motors yet.
we all know the eternal guess work for boats "what will fail next?" - or "what I think will need replacing in next 2/4/6 years"
I hope I dont have to decide on this for several years, but it is always good to plan for next steps. I was wanting to hear first hand experiences of integrel system - there are a few out there. And not all bad!

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Paws-on-Paws

INtegrel datasheet can be downloaded form their website (https://integrelsolutions.com/wp-con...asheet-1.5.pdf)
The latest is dated October 2022 and it lists "supported engines" - Yanmar, Volvo, Beta and Vetus. before we all decide to write the system off due to some past problems, I would be willing to give this system a benefit of doubt. Dont know about the threshold for winning a industrial design award - but why are we so eager to write it off? the product is not a traditional high output alternator.
I can understand the reluctancy in attcahing traditional alternator by adding pulleys at the front of the engine. My understadning Integrel does not add same load as a traditional alternator. Prove me wrong?

The only way an accessory such as an alternator could take power off without introducing side loads is if it were co-linear with the PTO shaft, that is attached straight off the end.
You could use a chain with minimal pretension or a series of gears and have a relatively small side load.

Any belt is going to have to be tensioned in order for the friction grip to work.

A clogged belt might be similar to a chain but I’m guessing required pretension would be closer to to a regular V-belt or serpentine.

If you had a double unit installation where the accessories were on opposite sides of the PTO you could have opposed belts that cancel each other’s side loads out.

[skipperpete]

Trying to figure out how to draw large amounts of power from the front end of the crankshaft has been a thorny problem for marine engine installers for a long time now and probably began with the need to install a refrigeration compressor back in the days when that was almost the only option if you wanted cold beer; then came belt driven watermaker pumps, hydraulic pumps and dual alternators and sometimes ALL of these off a cluster of pulleys on the front of the crank. Back then, engines were quite different in construction and power output so.... quite heavy, relatively low rpm ( apart from the 4-108 perkins) with a really chunky crankshaft so it was an achievable goal. Then the engines gradually changed to a lighter high rpm design criteria and gradually the ability to run all that “ Stuff” off the front pto was lost...... but no big deal, advances in compact DC refrigeration, DC hydraulic pumps and cat pumps meant we no longer needed the massive pulley cluster. Now, the cruisers needs for huge electrical power generation has created the re introduction of front pto loading.
INTEGREL is apparently re inventing how to do it with some very smart electronic management.
Yanmar offer quite a lot of guidance regarding the front pto on most of their engines, particularly on what they call “A” configuration I thought it was only 4 pages in the manual but on re reading it there’s way more. Here’s a couple of screen shots that the forum might find useful.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by skipperpete

Trying to figure out how to draw large amounts of power from the front end of the crankshaft has been a thorny problem for marine engine installers for a long time now

On some engines maybe
Looks like ours is designed or it.
Big pulley sitting there with 2 belts for the alt and 2 slots waiting for ????

[noelex 77]

I notice Integrel have released some new products. These include an alternator that fits between the engine and the gearbox, eliminating the side loading issue. This is called the Integrel Inline.

They also have an option of an inline alternator and propulsion called the Integrel Plus. Together with a powerboat version that has “Torque Boost” to help force the boat onto the plane called the Integrel Ultra.

Pricing is yet to be announced, but is expected to be around $25,000 for the Integrel Inline.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

On some engines maybe

Looks like ours is designed or it.

Big pulley sitting there with 2 belts for the alt and 2 slots waiting for ????

Your NT855 has the ability to drive a big cooling fan and any number of extra alternators, arguably one of the best engines Cummins ever built.

[skipperpete]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I notice Integrel have released some new products. These include an alternator that fits between the engine and the gearbox, eliminating the side loading issue. This is called the Integrel Inline.

They also have an option of an inline alternator and propulsion called the Integrel Plus. Together with a powerboat version that has “Torque Boost” to help force the boat onto the plane called the Integrel Ultra.

Pricing is yet to be announced, but is expected to be around $25,000 for the Integrel Inline.

The flywheel mounted model is a vast improvement over the belt driven add on unit, Yanmar already make one of these but the final output of theirs is AC. I’m still a bit startled by the price..... this new alternator might not appeal to the average cruising yachtie on a budget.

[nfbr]

I'm generating 9kw with an Oceanplanet / APS 56v/160A alternator generally running at about 7.5kw and 54v. Efficiency is about 75% or 80% so I assume with a 8 groove belt kit I'm pulling up to 20HP from the front drive.

Does what it says on the box. It does need a lot of RPM, and as my motors are 45hp turbo, when driving propellor, I don't have a lot left over for generating.

Integral numbers are based on large diesel in a mono that has dead space in it's efficiency curve mid RPM.

Cats are different, as many people run one engine, so the dead space is greatly reduced.

Generating at 2200 rpm is a little high RPM, but it is fast.

[aqfishing]

How does this system provide power when you are on one anchorage for 2 weeks?

Running a propulsion motor to charge batteries while on anchor:
a) cannot be efficient/economical
b) can’t be good for the engine? Little to no load?