Integrel - alternative to diesel gen set?

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

How does this system provide power when you are on one anchorage for 2 weeks?

Running a propulsion motor to charge batteries while on anchor:
a) cannot be efficient/economical
b) can’t be good for the engine? Little to no load?

45hp propulsion engine with 20hp load at 60% RPM is acceptable.

Agree though, I prefer my 5kw solar.

[dannc]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

How does this system provide power when you are on one anchorage for 2 weeks?

Running a propulsion motor to charge batteries while on anchor:
a) cannot be efficient/economical
b) can’t be good for the engine? Little to no load?

It depends on the HP of the engine and how much power is being generated using X engine HP.

nfpr's previous post says his 45 HP engines are using up to 20HP to generate power. That likely is loading up his engine enough but that is a point of discussion/debate.

I would think using around 44% of the engine HP would load the engine enough to prevent a load related problem and it would be efficient compered to having a generator that is used from time to time. Now, if one needed to run an engine all of the time to generate power, that likely is a different discussion

As an aside, one of the issues I have with Integrel and other electric power propulsion systems, is the proprietary electronics. What is one going to do when the proprietary electronics fail, especially if the company is no longer in business or they no longer support one's old model?

Later,
Dan

[wingssail]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

How does this system provide power when you are on one anchorage for 2 weeks?

Running a propulsion motor to charge batteries while on anchor:
a) cannot be efficient/economical
b) can’t be good for the engine? Little to no load?

We have used our main engine (Yanmar 3JH) with a high output alternator to charge our batteries while cruising for over 20 years. Our Yanmar has over 6500 hours on it, the majority were for battery charging. We motor very little as we prefer sailing, but we run the main engine every day to charge the batteries.

The engine does not seem to have suffered from this use case.

As for efficiency, we extract about 80-100 amp hours for approx 1/4 of a gallon of diesel fuel. We find this acceptable.

This is our choice: We do not wish to add the weight or complexity of a gen set, or a bigger solar array. We wish to keep our vessel light, simple, and fast. This approach has been satisfactory for us.

[wingssail]

A very newish catamaran from Europe arrived at our marina with the Intergrel system installed on one 55hp engine.

I was interested so I asked for and received a tour and demonstration.

What I saw was a very large belt driven alternator, a very large alternator/regulator, a huge and sort of complex Victron battery system with various inverters and converters, a huge solar array, and a small LCD operator's monitoring and control display. Assumably there were several sensors attached to the engine and instruments.

It appeared to be a very well engineered system and effective at what it was purported to do.

However the owner did not seem to be fully cognizant of how it operated. I asked him how he would diagnose and fix it if anything went wrong, say for example, in Papua New Guinea. He replied that he would send photos of the display to the manufacturer and they would tell him what to do.

Well, something did go wrong, and not in Papua. When he got ready to depart Mexico the system failed. It lugged down the motor and he could not use that motor to power the boat.

I talked to him daily and followed the progress of finding a fix. It did not go well. Integrel sent a local electrician to the boat (luckily there is one here in Mexico) but after two weeks they still had not solved the problem. The latest thought was that the bearings in the engine had gone bad and were holding down the engine RPM, at which I scoffed.

Then one day the boat was gone. I didn't hear from the owner but assumably it was resolved.

For me this is the very problem with new, complicated, electronics, installations: if it is electronic it will fail. When a system has many electronic components it may be difficult for an owner, or even a technician, to find the fault when the system suddenly does not do what it is supposed to do.

I know how hard it is sometimes to figure out why my simple alternator/regulator/12v battery system isn't working. And while the manufacturers have developed wonderful new machines, I don't think they have developed self-diagnosis systems to go with them.

As for me, I'll enjoy very complex toys, but my essential systems will be dead simple.

[drdoyle]

Nothing is free. Every kilowatt is going to require a couple of horsepower load out of the main disel propulsion engine. This will limit top rpm propeller load while pulling a large current from the generator/ alternator. It will work, just understand that it still consumes horsepower and fuel to generate the power.

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by drdoyle

Nothing is free. Every kilowatt is going to require a couple of horsepower load out of the main disel propulsion engine. This will limit top rpm propeller load while pulling a large current from the generator/ alternator. It will work, just understand that it still consumes horsepower and fuel to generate the power.

This is correct, with a small (very small) caveat.

If you look at a diesel BSFC fuel chart you'll see up to 50% variance in efficiency, depending on load. In general, at mid range, propellors are well below the peak efficiency point, so that's where they pick up some benefit. It's still "more fuel", but it's less "more fuel" than running seperately.

https://x-engineer.org/wp-content/up...ing-points.jpg

[hjohnson]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

How does this system provide power when you are on one anchorage for 2 weeks?

Running a propulsion motor to charge batteries while on anchor:
a) cannot be efficient/economical
b) can’t be good for the engine? Little to no load?

This is one of the things that I find intriguing about Beta Marine’s hybrid solution. You can uncouple the shaft and use the motors to generate power for your batteries, or go the other way and ghost out of the marina. The motor/generators are large enough that they will significantly load the engine if directed to do so.

Coupled with a properly engineered lfp power system, it looks like a good choice.

Massive overkill for my little 27’ though.

[badadim]

Hello, Integrel is pricey plus it requires a newer CAN-BUS enabled engines. I just finished an upgrade of legacy flooded lead acid bank with an old 1991 Yanmar to 5kWt LFP combined with AGM start battery and high output 12v alternator. It is very much a simplified version of Integrel which provides similar end-result of harvesting engine energy into LFP for future use. While it is not as "smart" as Nigel's system it works by "assuming" engine data by interpreting alternator's readings. Engine charge usage went down from 2hrs per day to 2hrs per week. Total cost is below 20% of what Integrel will be. Contact me via private message if you like to learn more.

[Rule303]

We put one in just after they launched, about four years ago.

Apart from an initial few tweaks we had to make to mate the provided plate to our Starboard Perkins, my guys did the install themselves, and it has consistently provided 8Kw per hour whenever it's used.

Now I have it mated to a commercial grade Perkins, and if I ever needed to replace my baby gen-set, I would put in a second Integral on my Port side in a heartbeat.

However, the single unit easily covers our underway power needs. Aprox 18Kwh per day with all three domestic split system A/Cs running. And the most I have ever noticed is the engine running the Integral uses about 0.5lph more than it's twin in the other hull.

I just checked, and in the past four years, my 3.5Kw genset in Port engine room has only been used for monthly maintenance checks.

[aqfishing]

Originally Posted by dannc

It depends on the HP of the engine and how much power is being generated using X engine HP.

nfpr's previous post says his 45 HP engines are using up to 20HP to generate power. That likely is loading up his engine enough but that is a point of discussion/debate.

I would think using around 44% of the engine HP would load the engine enough to prevent a load related problem and it would be efficient compered to having a generator that is used from time to time. Now, if one needed to run an engine all of the time to generate power, that likely is a different discussion

As an aside, one of the issues I have with Integrel and other electric power propulsion systems, is the proprietary electronics. What is one going to do when the proprietary electronics fail, especially if the company is no longer in business or they no longer support one's old model?

Later,
Dan

Most engines are propped to match the engine horse power. The numbers just don't add up for my simple brain! If you take 20Hp of a 29 or 45 hp engine, it does not leave much to turn the prop. This would lead to over working the engine when you under motor. Unless the system disconnects when not needed?

Using 44% of your engine power to generate electricity cannot be efficient, and will also leave your vessel underpowered, unless you have overpowered your engines to allow for the alternator demand.

As someone said, there are no free watts!

Solar is great, and I will be going strongly in that direction to reduce running the generator, but I have been on trips in the tropics where its heavily overcast for up to 10 days with rain. So always good to have generator back up.

I would rather run up engine hours on an easily replaceable generator than on a main engine. Also been a cat I would need to fit a system to each engine in order to balance engine hours, costly.

Thanks for all the comments, always interesting to explore alternatives. What fits one persons needs often is not suitable for another, so always fun evaluating other options.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by hjohnson

This is one of the things that I find intriguing about Beta Marine’s hybrid solution. Coupled with a properly engineered lfp power system, it looks like a good choice.

Massive overkill for my little 27’ though.

Yes, but cool as feck

Couple of years ago we were moored up as part of a raft of boats about 4 or 5 deep in an old fishing harbour (Weymouth UK). In the raft behind us an old Dutch solo sailor on a little 26ft wooden sloop said he wanted to leave. So all hands to the pumps. The yacht outside of the Dutch Sailor asked to come along side us and I agreed. Dozens of lines untied until finally just two which the Dutch guy let go. Shocked we all moved quickly for boat hooks and mops to fend off his yacht which was bound to drift all over the place.

Nope, he flicked a switch and quietly motored out of the harbour much to everyone's surprise

Reminds me of the £200 Millionaire story:

https://www.cruisersforum.com/forums...do=file&id=101

Anyway back to the thread. I think the Beta Hybrid option is about double the cost of say a 25hp engine, though no one will publish prices. However, it does seem a simpler set up to get your head around if it goes pear shaped.

There must be a reason for requiring a PRM 150 gearbox which I think is a hydraulic box, but don't know why

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Most engines are propped to match the engine horse power. The numbers just don't add up for my simple brain! If you take 20Hp of a 29 or 45 hp engine, it does not leave much to turn the prop. This would lead to over working the engine when you under motor. Unless the system disconnects when not needed?

Using 44% of your engine power to generate electricity cannot be efficient, and will also leave your vessel underpowered, unless you have overpowered your engines to allow for the alternator demand.

As someone said, there are no free watts!

Solar is great, and I will be going strongly in that direction to reduce running the generator, but I have been on trips in the tropics where its heavily overcast for up to 10 days with rain. So always good to have generator back up.

I would rather run up engine hours on an easily replaceable generator than on a main engine. Also been a cat I would need to fit a system to each engine in order to balance engine hours, costly.

Thanks for all the comments, always interesting to explore alternatives. What fits one persons needs often is not suitable for another, so always fun evaluating other options.

This from the Hybrid Marine site explains that the power is reduced as the revs increase so the prop loading increases.

The engine is driving the propeller shaft, via the gearbox, in the conventional way. At the same time the Generator is engaged and providing an extra load on the engine. Energy is extracted and stored in the battery bank. The controller is able to provide multi region charging of the battery bank (this patented technology) and can accommodate any battery technology. At higher engine speeds, when the propeller starts to substantially load the engine, the hybrid generator backs off so as not to overload the engine. At very high loads the hybrid generator tuns off completely allowing the engine to supply its full power to the propeller.

Sadly, I can't afford the space or weight of a diesel generator and engine. One or the other for us. Generator and electric motor could work.

Pete

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by aqfishing

Solar is great, and I will be going strongly in that direction to reduce running the generator, but I have been on trips in the tropics where its heavily overcast for up to 10 days with rain. So always good to have generator back up.

A marine generator is certainly not essential or even necessarily desirable these days. Many older cruising boats are removing their generator and moving to better solar and battery systems.

With the availability of modern efficient solar panels it is easy on many boats to design an electrical system where heavily overcast conditions for 10 days in the tropics are not an issue. We have even spent winters above 55N without a generator. In more sane locations it is possible to enjoy all the possible comforts (with the exception of substantial air conditioning use) sans generator.

A couple of decades ago if you desired extensive creature comforts (and why not) fitting a generator was the only practical solution, but this is no longer the case for most vessels especially a catamaran.

While it is not my personal preference, there is nothing wrong with designing an electrical system around a generator. This can work well and be a sensible solution especially if the boat is already equipped this way. However, we need to dispel the myth that it is “always good to have generator back up” at least when referring to marine (as opposed to small portable petrol) generators. Marine generators are heavy bulky items that need to be run (and therefore serviced and repaired) periodically even if their output is unnecessary. If buying a new boat do not automatically tick the generator option box without carefully considering the options.

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by dannc

It depends on the HP of the engine and how much power is being generated using X engine HP.

nfpr's previous post says his 45 HP engines are using up to 20HP to generate power. That likely is loading up his engine enough but that is a point of discussion/debate.

I would think using around 44% of the engine HP would load the engine enough to prevent a load related problem and it would be efficient compered to having a generator that is used from time to time. Now, if one needed to run an engine all of the time to generate power, that likely is a different discussion

As an aside, one of the issues I have with Integrel and other electric power propulsion systems, is the proprietary electronics. What is one going to do when the proprietary electronics fail, especially if the company is no longer in business or they no longer support one's old model?

Later,
Dan

At mid RPM it's about 90% of available HP

At 1700 it's about 120% of available HP and won't get the turbo spooled if the propellor is also running.

Max RPM is 3600 on this engine. Yanmar recommends 2200 min continuous due to turbo

[Matt Johnson]

Originally Posted by Pete7

There must be a reason for requiring a PRM 150 gearbox which I think is a hydraulic box, but don't know why

This gearbox allows unlimited freewheeling. When in neutral, it's the disconnect between the engine and the electric motor. The electric motor turns the propshaft - propelling the boat - but also turning the output side of the gearbox. This is the same for regeneration. If it were a conventional gearbox, it would have wear issues after doing this for awhile. The PRM150 doesn't.