Integrel - alternative to diesel gen set?

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by Matt Johnson

Are you having communication issues between the Victron equipment? Is that why you're suggesting single inverter/charger and less MPPT solar controllers?

Awesome boat by the way

Not problems with parallel but extra cost, complexity, higher min inputs limits, more standby waste, higher failure rate, and no redundancy. They are NOT redundant in parallel. One off all off.

I have 7 MPPTS. They don't improve shadowing performance. One MPPT for each direction / major angle.

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by nfbr

We have 5kw solar, 30kwhr LFP, 2x5kw Victron 48v, 9kw alternator, and DCDC to 12v for Nav, start, lights etc.
.

Thanks:

I was going parallel for redundancy not relying on one inverter. Our AC is all 230V so easier on that score.

Solar will all be on flybridge hard roof so likely only need two MPPT. Solar mount on equator will be almost flat so design issue is mainly airflow and a slight angle to allow rain to rinse clean and drain panels. Thankfully no sea gulls in Seychelles!

Battery I’m going to go as big as will fit in the Northern Lights enclosure after I add airflow and dehumidifier and encase the battery and BMS with a fire suppression system. It gets messy to later add more kWh and have mixed Lithium banks and cells.

So it boils down to APS vs Integrel and probably use cases with Yanmar 8LV370. I think I will mothball the ACR from motors to 12v bank

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Not problems with parallel but extra cost, complexity, higher min inputs limits, more standby waste, higher failure rate, and no redundancy. They are NOT redundant in parallel. One off all off.

I have 7 MPPTS. They don't improve shadowing performance. One MPPT for each direction / major angle.

Why do you say no redundancy with parallel? The way I’ve seen Victron parallel in a solar off grid cabin, if one dies the others stay up via that plant controller gadget. Obv then have one less inverter output so can support lower loads, but in that setup they also split their AC bus into crucial and optional equipment and each Victron had two AC outputs to the two AC bus. It basically ensures that all inverters look after crucial AC bus and if battery allows in your config, all also supply to the optional AC bus. I’d for example put the dive compressor on optional AC bus and maybe the port and starboard hull Aircons. Crucial AC bus would have electric grill and saloon Aircon and normal plug outlets.

[nfbr]

Read the manual again. One down, all down, till you reprogram than back to single mode with a laptop / adapter / software / different config , and isolate all wiring.

Re. Fire supression. Read ABYC Presidents letter on LFP. Your efforts are better spent elsewhere. The cells are basically non flammable under all conditions.

[nfbr]

https://www.victronenergy.com/live/ve.bus:manual_parallel_and_three_phase_systems

https://community.victronenergy.com/questions/184249/parallelredundant-operation-with-2-quattro-ii-4850.html

They are master / slave pair, both must be present.

See notes on how AC wire gauge affects load balancing.
Parallel is fussy

[Johan Leopard51]

OK Will look again. A mate does big systems for Victron including mobile big power as in harbor fire fighting boats and his route is parallel. Might be diff platforms and PPC than yours.

[americano]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Yep, system continues to be extremely robust, every owner I know is very happy. Just spent last weekend in Annapolis and nothing but glowing reviews.

This is pretty much the same feedback I've gotten.

I've been following Integrel for at least two years. I was on the fence for a long time until I started talking to owners. They're all very happy with the system. Two who are the longest users (one 2+ years and the other 3+) absolutely love it and highly recommend it.

I just placed an order and it will be installed in a couple of months.

[RaymondR]

If your Northern Lights genset has run reliably enough to remain in service and become obsolete I'd be inclined to have it rebuilt and get another thirty years reliable service from it.

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

If your Northern Lights genset has run reliably enough to remain in service and become obsolete I'd be inclined to have it rebuilt and get another thirty years reliable service from it.

The Northern Lights is still OK, think about 4900h on it. Have replaced things like cooling elbow but not much else. Seychelles is difficult place to do a rebuild and not worth crating and shipping it for rebuild. Maybe sell it there before it dies.

I just hate running a gennie when the yacht motors are off. For context the Yanmar hours is about 2600 so almost half the gennie hours.

Integrel have an 8LV370 like ours at their workshop, so waiting to hear about bracket solution. The two 370’s are big V8’s and we mostly run slow cruise.

That Inline on prop shaft new Integrel looks like a stunning solution. Besides unbalanced forces, being able to power the Leopard off battery would be very nice.

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Read the manual again. One down, all down, till you reprogram than back to single mode with a laptop / adapter / software / different config , and isolate all wiring.

Re. Fire supression. Read ABYC Presidents letter on LFP. Your efforts are better spent elsewhere. The cells are basically non flammable under all conditions.

I think modern lithium is probably safer all around than the old lead acid batteries btw.

fire and lithium all depends on the battery construction and BMS. I have a 600kWh mini grid at my factory for grid shaving and backup along with solar because our grid sucks. At that kind of sophistication the BMS does cel level monitoring of everything and is able to shut out an individual suspect cell loooong before issues arise. Mass market smaller lithium system don’t all have that.

Also, if there aren’t other potential fires (eg my factory system sits in a concrete bunker) then also much lower risk.

I think on yacht I would:
1. Enclose area well for esp humidity control.
2. Put in a suppression system that can remove heat and starve oxygen and the monitor can EStop the battery bank. For yacht sized system that is actually relatively simple with isopanel enclosure.

A lot of the internet scare stories are for obscure scenarios like puncturing a lithium pouch battery. Then it does go pear shaped very fast.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

I think modern lithium is probably safer all around than the old lead acid batteries btw.

fire and lithium all depends on the battery construction and BMS. I have a 600kWh mini grid at my factory for grid shaving and backup along with solar because our grid sucks. At that kind of sophistication the BMS does cel level monitoring of everything and is able to shut out an individual suspect cell loooong before issues arise. Mass market smaller lithium system don’t all have that.

Also, if there aren’t other potential fires (eg my factory system sits in a concrete bunker) then also much lower risk.

I think on yacht I would:
1. Enclose area well for esp humidity control.
2. Put in a suppression system that can remove heat and starve oxygen and the monitor can EStop the battery bank. For yacht sized system that is actually relatively simple with isopanel enclosure.

A lot of the internet scare stories are for obscure scenarios like puncturing a lithium pouch battery. Then it does go pear shaped very fast.

Saying modern lithium is dangerous. LFP and NMC/NCA are very different although they both use Lithium.

NMC/NCA and most lithium chemistries. Produce their own oxygen when they burn. The battery contains oxygen and as it heats up that oxygen dissociates. So now you have a hot battery surrounded by a high concentration of oxygen gas. When it goes above the ignition temperature of any of the materials in the battery ... poof. They will burn in a vacuum. They burn hot enough that a CO2 fire extinguisher sprayed on them can break down into CO and O2 adding oxygen to the fire.

This is why puncturing an NCA/NMC cell burns so violently. Think about it you put a tiny hole in the battery there is very little oxygen from the air that can reach the interior where the shorting cell is getting hot so how it is burning so hot and aggressively? The battery is producing oxygen as it breaks down leading to more combustion which means more heat igniting more of the battery which also begins producing more oxygen.

LFP are LiFePO4. The oxygen is bonded to the phosphate atom and breaking those bonds to produce free oxygen requires a huge amount of heat more than what can happen in a smouldering LFP cell.

Sorry for being pedantic but modern lithium is not inherently safe certainly not safer than FLA/AGM. LFP with proper precautions are reasonably safe.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

The Northern Lights is still OK, think about 4900h on it. Have replaced things like cooling elbow but not much else. Seychelles is difficult place to do a rebuild and not worth crating and shipping it for rebuild. Maybe sell it there before it dies.

I just hate running a gennie when the yacht motors are off. For context the Yanmar hours is about 2600 so almost half the gennie hours.

Integrel have an 8LV370 like ours at their workshop, so waiting to hear about bracket solution. The two 370’s are big V8’s and we mostly run slow cruise.

That Inline on prop shaft new Integrel looks like a stunning solution. Besides unbalanced forces, being able to power the Leopard off battery would be very nice.

Works ok, is reliable, and 4900 hours? You are solving a problem which doesn't exist. You will most likely get another 5100 hours out of it before even thinking about a rebuild. This is not some crappy Fischer Panda etc.

Unless maybe you want to save the weight. In that case, then you will certainly be able to sell it, since it's a great unit only halfway through its expected TBO.

On my boat I have several pages of desired repairs and upgrades which I would certainly do before "upgrading" a perfectly good heavy duty genset. Remember also that you will increase hours you put on a main engine like that. Hours on an older heavy duty generator are a lot cheaper than hours put on a main engine.

If I were you, I would put my money (actually, 5% or 6% of the cost of an Integral) into a really comprehensive box of spare parts, and forget about it.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

I think modern lithium is probably safer all around than the old lead acid batteries btw.

fire and lithium all depends on the battery construction and BMS. I have a 600kWh mini grid at my factory for grid shaving and backup along with solar because our grid sucks. At that kind of sophistication the BMS does cel level monitoring of everything and is able to shut out an individual suspect cell loooong before issues arise. Mass market smaller lithium system don’t all have that.

Also, if there aren’t other potential fires (eg my factory system sits in a concrete bunker) then also much lower risk.

I think on yacht I would:
1. Enclose area well for esp humidity control.
2. Put in a suppression system that can remove heat and starve oxygen and the monitor can EStop the battery bank. For yacht sized system that is actually relatively simple with isopanel enclosure.

A lot of the internet scare stories are for obscure scenarios like puncturing a lithium pouch battery. Then it does go pear shaped very fast.

Li-ion and LiFePo-4 are chalk and cheese.


Yacht battery banks are built with the latter, which is extremely safe and cannot spontaneously combust like Li-ion.


This is a very worthwhile upgrade.


Do you have a second alternator on one (or both) main engines? This is a quite cheap and very worthwhile upgrade, especially together with LiFePo-4 batteries. You will be able to top off your batts underway and potentially greatly reduce generator hours. Much cheaper and simpler than Integral.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Li-ion and LiFePo-4 are chalk and cheese.


Yacht battery banks are built with the latter, which is extremely safe and cannot spontaneously combust like Li-ion.


This is a very worthwhile upgrade.


Do you have a second alternator on one (or both) main engines? This is a quite cheap and very worthwhile upgrade, especially together with LiFePo-4 batteries. You will be able to top off your batts underway and potentially greatly reduce generator hours. Much cheaper and simpler than Integral.

Best way to go, an alternator for the cranking system and a second for the house system and keep the two systems isolated as much as possible. Simple and robust.

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

Best way to go, an alternator for the cranking system and a second for the house system and keep the two systems isolated as much as possible. Simple and robust.

We have 180A alternators on each Yanmar and then each has ACR that links house and that starter if either one of the two is over 13V for > 2 minutes. So ACR also ensures starter is OK for example while on shore power the house battery is healthy. (ACR charge starter because house is at say 13.8