Integrel - alternative to diesel gen set?

[Johan Leopard51]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Works ok, is reliable, and 4900 hours? You are solving a problem which doesn't exist. .

I want to be rid of the noise of diesel genset. Also, I figure using a bit more fuel per motor (say 15Hp worth) is more efficient than running 30Hp from Northern Lights. We’re doing solar regardless, and the space of 12V house battery is limited : that Gennie is using up a lot of space.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

I want to be rid of the noise of diesel genset. Also, I figure using a bit more fuel per motor (say 15Hp worth) is more efficient than running 30Hp from Northern Lights. We’re doing solar regardless, and the space of 12V house battery is limited : that Gennie is using up a lot of space.

I think the efficiency difference will be a rounding error.


If you want to make power while motoring, school bus alternators are all you need. You can easily get 2.5kW or 3kW out of each one, and you don't want to take more than that or you risk overloading the engine with that plus propeller drive.


The Integral will be better for charging at anchor when the prop is not engaged.


Of course you will save a good bit of weight and space by getting rid of the generator, and you should get good money for it.


I have a similar generator on my boat (Kohler EFOZD, 6.5kW) and I'm awfully fond of it. I have that plus 2.5kW school bus alternator plus Victron charger/inverter so I have fully redundant sources of AC power. I can live without running the generator at all in a pinch and making lots of power while motoring considerably reduces generator run times.

[Johan Leopard51]

Dockhead:

On ours, the major AC loads are electric grill (it was there, I would prefer gas), Aircon, dive compressor and then the increasing assortment of gadgets guests have.

The main DC loads beyond obvious are watermaker but then we have (tropics) the fridge freezer drawers, a separate 90liter camping fridge and a 90 liter camping freezer and ice marker on flydeck and fridge on flydeck. They are all DC wired thankfully. Cooling is BIG user.

In Seychelles, unless doing 150 mile crossings to and from outer islands, or fishing a lot, daily distances with motors are not that long and sometimes stay three days one anchorage if snorkel and scuba is good.

I find AGM house battery bank does not cope so need to run gennie at times just to recharge house bank never mind other times for grill or compressor or when some people bitch about aircon. (I sleep forward of saloon on deck). Even going lithium, the space for house bank is not enough.

We are doing solar in order not to run shore power. Our marina has terrible earthing so we bleed metal and I want to go not shore power that anyway costs US$0.45/kWh. We should almost always start a trip with full lithium, and on anchor, idling the two Yanmar will very quickly recharge. I think the Yanmar alternators probably pass, net of persistent DC loads, about 30A for recharge per motor to existing house bank. People forget that alternators need thermal compensation load management to avoid damaging alternator from trying to pump high Amps at idle.

So, need big battery storage and only space is the gennie space and if have that big battery I may as well get 18kW recharge from the two 370Hp motors. To my mind, even if there is no magic extra harvest, relying on three motors for X kwh per day must be less efficient and cost more in maintenance than two Yanmar.

In any event, as boater you know that we can rationalize any next thing we must have to our wives…. Imagine my wife sells my fishing gear for what I told her I paid for it

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Johan Leopard51

Dockhead:

On ours, the major AC loads are electric grill (it was there, I would prefer gas), Aircon, dive compressor and then the increasing assortment of gadgets guests have.

The main DC loads beyond obvious are watermaker but then we have (tropics) the fridge freezer drawers, a separate 90liter camping fridge and a 90 liter camping freezer and ice marker on flydeck and fridge on flydeck. They are all DC wired thankfully. Cooling is BIG user.

In Seychelles, unless doing 150 mile crossings to and from outer islands, or fishing a lot, daily distances with motors are not that long and sometimes stay three days one anchorage if snorkel and scuba is good.

I find AGM house battery bank does not cope so need to run gennie at times just to recharge house bank never mind other times for grill or compressor or when some people bitch about aircon. (I sleep forward of saloon on deck). Even going lithium, the space for house bank is not enough.

We are doing solar in order not to run shore power. Our marina has terrible earthing so we bleed metal and I want to go not shore power that anyway costs US$0.45/kWh. We should almost always start a trip with full lithium, and on anchor, idling the two Yanmar will very quickly recharge. I think the Yanmar alternators probably pass, net of persistent DC loads, about 30A for recharge per motor to existing house bank. People forget that alternators need thermal compensation load management to avoid damaging alternator from trying to pump high Amps at idle.

So, need big battery storage and only space is the gennie space and if have that big battery I may as well get 18kW recharge from the two 370Hp motors. To my mind, even if there is no magic extra harvest, relying on three motors for X kwh per day must be less efficient and cost more in maintenance than two Yanmar.

In any event, as boater you know that we can rationalize any next thing we must have to our wives…. Imagine my wife sells my fishing gear for what I told her I paid for it

Well, let us know how it works out. It's an interesting system.


I hadn't thought about AC. Do you use it? Running AC off shore power will put a ton of hours on whatever is producing the power. I would not want to be doing in my main engine in order to run AC.


I'm not very tolerant of heat and would want AC in a sleeping cabin at night at least, in the tropics. This is one reason why I cruise mostly above 60N, and my boat does not have AC.


Your use case cries out for LiFePo4 batteries. If I were you, I would start with that. They have more power density (per unit of volume as well as weight) than lead, so you might be able to stuff in more than you think. If you can get a day or two's worth of consumption, in battery capacity, you will stop worrying so much about charging.


What concerns alternators -- small-case alternators are not designed for producing bulk power and will derate themselves or self-destruct if called on to do something like charge a lithium bank. Large-case school bus alternators are an entirely different animal. They are designed to produce their rated power continuously and at high temperatures. You can charge lithium with them (it's a good idea, however, to regulate them with something like Balmar and derate slightly).


The smaller ones like mine will produce about 110 amps @26 volts. Bigger than that and you start needing something other than v-belts to drive them.


You can also get really big ones, like off Humvees.


Here is just one of many sources:
https://zena.net/htdocs/alternators/mar_alt.shtml

[tanglewood]

Just curious what the current thinking is on the Integrel vs more conventional, but large alternators with a modern regulator?

With large alternators you can get 6.5kw continuous per alternator. You still need a belt drive system, but you need that with the Integrel as well.

The Integrel does "load shaping" to ensure enough engine power is left for propulsion, something that's particularly important with smaller sail boat engines that could be fully loaded by an alternator, if allowed. However the latest regulators like Wakespeed and Zeus also have load shaping to accomplish the same thing. And with larger boats the alternator load is a smaller portion of available engine power, and load shaping becomes less important.

Perhaps a little bit more fuel to kwh conversion efficiency with the Integrel due to higher operating voltage for greater alternator efficiency? But how much better? Some of the brushless large frame alternators have pretty good efficiency.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Just curious what the current thinking is on the Integrel vs more conventional, but large alternators with a modern regulator?

With large alternators you can get 6.5kw continuous per alternator. You still need a belt drive system, but you need that with the Integrel as well.

The Integrel does "load shaping" to ensure enough engine power is left for propulsion, something that's particularly important with smaller sail boat engines that could be fully loaded by an alternator, if allowed. However the latest regulators like Wakespeed and Zeus also have load shaping to accomplish the same thing. And with larger boats the alternator load is a smaller portion of available engine power, and load shaping becomes less important.

Perhaps a little bit more fuel to kwh conversion efficiency with the Integrel due to higher operating voltage for greater alternator efficiency? But how much better? Some of the brushless large frame alternators have pretty good efficiency.

I think you put your finger on it (as usual).

The Integral doesn't actually do anything which can't be done with (a) large frame heavy duty alternators; (b) regulation like Balmar which allows you to shape the output depending on engine load, RPM; (c) a good inverter.

I would rather do it like that, myself, because the system will be more robust with separate components. And a whole lot cheaper. And a whole lot easier and cheaper to maintain and repair, since all the parts are generic.

[nfbr]

You dont need large frame. My APS 58/160 alternator fits in the standard location, makes 9kw, is Wakespeed (could be Zeus) regulated, and seems reliable.
Initial setup was a hassle, but I hear that for many systems. Mosty wakespeed issues.

My friend with 2 integrals doesnt report them being significantly better, and has had his fair share of integration issues.

For a small alternator, it puts out a steady 7kw without trouble and 9 if I push the settings / rpm / temperature.

The downsides -
RPM’s. The belt ratio must be big, and the engine must rev. My redline is 3800rpm and if I want max output I need to run at >2300rpm.
Integration is a little tricky
Integrals external rectification is a good idea in my opinion
You’ll stuggle to get a high ratio belt kit since MG went out of business
Wakespeed is fussy. Real fussy. Esp on a cat with longer wiring runs. You’ve been warned.
On a small 45hp turbo motor, you need to manage load whilst in gear.
Temperature management is poorly documented from every manufacturer. Electric motors and generators come with winding insulation temperature ratings published in their specs. Alternators dont tell you, so temps are vague.
That applies to Balmar, Integral etc. For anyone that says they know it, I call bull. The critical temps are winding insulation, rectifier and bearings. With huge difference variations across an alternator (use a thermal camera), there is no single “temperature”.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nfbr

You dont need large frame. My APS 58/160 alternator fits in the standard location, makes 9kw, is Wakespeed (could be Zeus) regulated, and seems reliable.
Initial setup was a hassle, but I hear that for many systems. Mosty wakespeed issues.

My friend with 2 integrals doesnt report them being significantly better, and has had his fair share of integration issues.

For a small alternator, it puts out a steady 7kw without trouble and 9 if I push the settings / rpm / temperature.

The downsides -
RPM’s. The belt ratio must be big, and the engine must rev. My redline is 3800rpm and if I want max output I need to run at >2300rpm.
Integration is a little tricky
Integrals external rectification is a good idea in my opinion
You’ll stuggle to get a high ratio belt kit since MG went out of business
Wakespeed is fussy. Real fussy. Esp on a cat with longer wiring runs. You’ve been warned.
On a small 45hp turbo motor, you need to manage load whilst in gear.
Temperature management is poorly documented from every manufacturer. Electric motors and generators come with winding insulation temperature ratings published in their specs. Alternators dont tell you, so temps are vague.
That applies to Balmar, Integral etc. For anyone that says they know it, I call bull. The critical temps are winding insulation, rectifier and bearings. With huge difference variations across an alternator (use a thermal camera), there is no single “temperature”.

There are a number of good solutions with small frame alternators, but it's still like trying to drive a tractor with a souped up Volkswagen engine. Much better to use a tractor engine in the first place. And much cheaper.

So starting from scratch, IF you have space for it, large frame every day. Right out of the box and for only $500 or so, you get the thing designed from the beginning for continuous high output, with all components already hot rated, with appropriate cooling, etc. etc.

The souped-up small frame alternators are perfect, however, for cases where there is no space to fit a large frame one.


Yet another of the many advantages of large frame alternators is they work already from very low RPM. That's because they were designed to produce bulk power from idle speeds -- school busses and emergency vehicles being one of the main applications.

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

There are a number of good solutions with small frame alternators, but it's still like trying to drive a tractor with a souped up Volkswagen engine. Much better to use a tractor engine in the first place. And much cheaper.

So starting from scratch, IF you have space for it, large frame every day. Right out of the box and for only $500 or so, you get the thing designed from the beginning for continuous high output, with all components already hot rated, with appropriate cooling, etc. etc.

The souped-up small frame alternators are perfect, however, for cases where there is no space to fit a large frame one.


Yet another of the many advantages of large frame alternators is they work already from very low RPM. That's because they were designed to produce bulk power from idle speeds -- school busses and emergency vehicles being one of the main applications.

Only$500? About 1/3 the cost of Integral, no mounting system costs, less side load crank issues as less stick out.
I agree, the large frame is more robust, but at a heavy cost.
Easier to replace this 3-5 times.

That said, we only need to generate two hours every 3-4 days in US winter and never rest of season.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Only$500? About 1/3 the cost of Integral, no mounting system costs, less side load crank issues as less stick out.
I agree, the large frame is more robust, but at a heavy cost.
Easier to replace this 3-5 times.

That said, we only need to generate two hours every 3-4 days in US winter and never rest of season.

Integral is only $1500?


With the large frame alternator, you've still got costs for mounting and drive system. Some engines -- like many Yanmars -- already have the pulleys and you can buy the factory made bracket for the second alternator. But for some engines it can be a bit of a faff.

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Integral is only $1500?


With the large frame alternator, you've still got costs for mounting and drive system. Some engines -- like many Yanmars -- already have the pulleys and you can buy the factory made bracket for the second alternator. But for some engines it can be a bit of a faff.

APS160 setup was about $3k from memory (1.6+.8+.6)
Integral was about $10k
I dont know price or availability for 48v 9kw large frame

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Kinkircating

Yep, as does installing any high output alternator that others have mentioned. The difference is Integrel backs up their installation with an insurance policy through that covers any costs associated with an engine manufacturer having voided their warranty claim.

Everyone should definitely do their own due diligence.

Some Yanmars come from the factory with two alternators, one a large frame school bus unit. Mine is one of those. As long as you don't bust the front PTO torque limits, it's ok. Integrel busts them, I guess.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nfbr

APS160 setup was about $3k from memory (1.6+.8+.6)
Integral was about $10k
I dont know price or availability for 48v 9kw large frame

You can't take that much hp off the front PTO of any Yanmar. You'll ruin the front crank bearing. That much power needs to come off the prop shaft.

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You can't take that much hp off the front PTO of any Yanmar. You'll ruin the front crank bearing. That much power needs to come off the prop shaft.

Maybe. Not so simple.
From yanmar docs, need to look at stickout and if two different alt belts, load vectors.
Maybe.

Mine are 32yo. The one that leaks and is a hassle is the one without the big alt
Go figure

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Maybe. Not so simple.
From yanmar docs, need to look at stickout and if two different alt belts, load vectors.
Maybe.

Mine are 32yo. The one that leaks and is a hassle is the one without the big alt
Go figure

Yanmar limits the amount of power you can take off the front irrespective of side loads, which is not the only problem. Your manual will have a "PTO Permissible Output Curve" diagram.



You do not want to bust these.