Integrel - alternative to diesel gen set?

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yanmar limits the amount of power you can take off the front irrespective of side loads, which is not the only problem. Your manual will have a "PTO Permissible Output Curve" diagram.



You do not want to bust these.

They only publish for some models. I’ve looked and couldn't find for 3jh2-te or similar. If you find it or similar I’f love a copy.
I can say so far only failure was a water pump bearing and I’m undecided if that was belt load or age (30yrs) or seal failure then bearing failure. Time will tell.
Now why does my sbd engine still leak on the front seal after replacing, it’s got a small 50a alt!

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by nfbr

They only publish for some models. I’ve looked and couldn't find for 3jh2-te or similar. If you find it or similar I’f love a copy.
I can say so far only failure was a water pump bearing and I’m undecided if that was belt load or age (30yrs) or seal failure then bearing failure. Time will tell.
Now why does my sbd engine still leak on the front seal after replacing, it’s got a small 50a alt!

It might be because the shaft surface has become highly polished, try "un-polishing" it with fine emery cloth.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Yanmar limits the amount of power you can take off the front irrespective of side loads, which is not the only problem. Your manual will have a "PTO Permissible Output Curve" diagram.



You do not want to bust these.

Bit of a side topic but you seem to know this stuff. I foudn the Permissible Output Curve for my engine but it as 3 lines: A-Type, D-Type, and D-Type without driven propeller. Can't find the definition of A-Type vs D-Type. Any ideas?

https://www.maritimepropulsion.com/files/pdf/1001374

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Bit of a side topic but you seem to know this stuff. I foudn the Permissible Output Curve for my engine but it as 3 lines: A-Type, D-Type, and D-Type without driven propeller. Can't find the definition of A-Type vs D-Type. Any ideas?

https://www.maritimepropulsion.com/files/pdf/1001374

A-type is to a load attached to the side, driven by front mount pulleys. D-type I think is connected in-line, with pillow blocks.

Note that for your engine the maximum is only 4.4kW, and at 2000 RPM, only about 2.5kW. That's MECHANICAL power, not electrical power, so discount for the alternator's efficiency factor, typically 70% - 80%.

You will want to gear the alternator to produce near max power at 2000RPM engine speed, so you would want maybe 80 amps at 24v. 100 could be pushing it.

[poiu]

I really don’t like the complexity of the Integrel system. 48V in a boat that will mostly need 12V or 24V isn’t great. It’s another voltage to convert and conversion equipment that will break. Sure if designed from scratch it will save you weight and cost in cables for the windlass and bowthruster, but you will need some other voltage as you can’t get 48V equipment for everything. Then again you are seriously limited in choices of suppliers of equipment in 48V and getting parts for esoteric equipment in the sticks is not going to be easy. You also have a complex box of tricks to manage it all, again it will break. And for what other advantage? The fuel savings are going to be tiny in the scheme of things.

My next boat and this one when upgrades are done will be self sufficient in solar with a Leece Neville (bus) alternator on the main engine as back up. It’s reliable and very cheap too. If I had a cat I’d have one on each engine, so double redundancy.

Unless I missed something important the Integrel appears to be a solution looking for a problem.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by poiu

I really don’t like the complexity of the Integrel system. 48V in a boat that will mostly need 12V or 24V isn’t great. It’s another voltage to convert and conversion equipment that will break. Sure if designed from scratch it will save you weight and cost in cables for the windlass and bowthruster, but you will need some other voltage as you can’t get 48V equipment for everything. Then again you are seriously limited in choices of suppliers of equipment in 48V and getting parts for esoteric equipment in the sticks is not going to be easy. You also have a complex box of tricks to manage it all, again it will break. And for what other advantage? The fuel savings are going to be tiny in the scheme of things.

My next boat and this one when upgrades are done will be self sufficient in solar with a Leece Neville (bus) alternator on the main engine as back up. It’s reliable and very cheap too. If I had a cat I’d have one on each engine, so double redundancy.

Unless I missed something important the Integrel appears to be a solution looking for a problem.

School bus alternators are simple, robust, cheap, off-the-shelf devices which can be fixed in any third-world auto electric shop. If such a device is even half as capable as a complex custom device requiring proprietary parts, it's in my opinion preferable on a cruising boat which is sailed over long distances.


I've been through periods on my boat where the generator was not working (always from some kind of error of my own in maintenance or operation), and I got along just fine with my 110 amp * 24v Leece Neville bog standard cheap alternator. It would happily run my washer/dryer with the main engine not much over tickover, and charge the batteries at the same time.


230v AC power I get from Victron inverter so I hardly care whether I am producing DC/24v power of AC/230v power. In either case a conversion takes place; either the battery charger or the inverter is working.

[poiu]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

School bus alternators are simple, robust, cheap, off-the-shelf devices which can be fixed in any third-world auto electric shop. If such a device is even half as capable as a complex custom device requiring proprietary parts, it's in my opinion preferable on a cruising boat which is sailed over long distances.


I've been through periods on my boat where the generator was not working (always from some kind of error of my own in maintenance or operation), and I got along just fine with my 110 amp * 24v Leece Neville bog standard cheap alternator. It would happily run my washer/dryer with the main engine not much over tickover, and charge the batteries at the same time.


230v AC power I get from Victron inverter so I hardly care whether I am producing DC/24v power of AC/230v power. In either case a conversion takes place; either the battery charger or the inverter is working.

Yep. KIS(S). Brackets not for you.

[americano]

For those interested in Integrel, here is an interesting write up from an early adopter:
Integrel®, feedback after 3,5 years

There are a couple of interesting articles on this owner's website.
https://sv-away-to-me.ghost.io/away-...g-power-plant/
https://sv-away-to-me.ghost.io/integ...-power-source/

[Johan Leopard51]

That guy has had many problems!

I think part of the problem is the battery configuration and who is trying to do what - ignoring the battery brand etc. I would much rather go for a parallel configuration of 52V lithium batteries that incorporates its own BMS. Those BMS manages individual cells and the charge/discharge picture of the bank, presenting a DC source/load on the DC bus that the Victron connects to.

At work I have a 600kWh battery bank in 700Vdc configuration but behind the scenes it is three parallel banks that in turn each consist of 14 battery packs of series connected 15kWh banks each at 52V. When I go into the BMS screens I can see temp, volts and Ah per cell and the system seems to do a good job managing that per cell. Voltage difference across cells mostly sit at 5-15 millivolt (0.005 to 0.015 Volt) and there are a LOT of cells in the bank.

Whether we go Integrel or big alternators I would go with a 52V generation system and 52V battery bank and most importantly I would leave battery management to the lithium BMS. Each vendor knows their composition and imho at these levels you must be managing at a cell level - something generation sources are NOT equipped to do and the inverter-chargers also can’t do. My big fancy minigrid 500kW inverter-charger and isolation transformer merely see a DC combiner, not batteries or cells.

[americano]

I posted it because I think its important to see and learn from others' experiences.

I've talked personally with another owner who has Torquedo batteries on a Leopard 45 with Integrel on each engine. I deduce that his system was installed at about the same time as OrinocoToo. He mentioned that they had some problems initially related to the batteries but Integrel tech support resolved it. His experience with the system is very positive and recommends it (emphatically). Truthfully, his enthusiasm was instrumental in convincing me to go with Integrel.

[Johan Leopard51]

What I forgot to add to letting the BMS manage cells, is that the only key variable that you control from the inverter-charger is max discharge and charge. In the interest of the battery life that is usually 1/2C. So if I go for 60kWh battery bank, then 1/2C would in any event be more than the generation source can provide under any situation and my loads on the cat would unlikely ever approach 30kW. But one would want to restrict the Victron charge while connected to shore power to 30kW. I doubt that is an issue even, as it is unlikely that we would go bigger than about 15kW Victron so it would have a max charge and discharge itself.

I am fairly sure the BMS protects itself regardless of the max discharge/charge from the inverter. On the SOC I think BMS can also shut down supply at say 15% SOC.