Just completed upgrade from AGM to Lithium

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

We've anchored off your marina several times visiting Port Orchard and Bremerton and plan to return soon as my wife misses the PO farmer's market!

The foot ferry to Bremerton is awesome, and from there we can catch a bus to pretty much anywhere we can't go by boat, including SeaTac.

I believe our sister ship Raven's Dance owned by our friend Donn Lassila was at Railway for a long time before he moved to Alaska, you know him or his boat?

Port Orchard is a sweet place to be, good choice!

Check out the farmers market in Silverdale at the head of dyes inlet . Nice little public dock with good shore services and walking distance to the Costco.

[Seafarer7]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Seafarer, how is it that you are familiar with our solar panels?

Because I bought them and I installed them
on SV Grace when I owned the vessel :-)
Along with the charge controller, the Hurricane combo hydronic heater, new Garmin electronics, etc.
Surely you remember me - direct PO of SV Grace ? :-)

[PirateGuy]

Originally Posted by newhaul

It was a screen grab. I will try to make it better .
One of the mods on here did it for us .

Thank you Newhaul. The numbers are now readable.

This looks like it was done on an Excel spreadsheet. Any chance of linking the original spreadsheet for ease of use? I’d commit to updating it and sharing w/original author/CF as new LFP battery costs come in.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

We just completed an upgrade from a 1200ah Mastervolt AGM house battery bank to 1200ah Mastervolt Lithium.

We are happy and excited about our new lithium batteries! Our first week was nirvana and we have high hopes that their initial performance will continue.

Grace, we did a similar upgrade, although not to the extent of yours. We started with a complete Mastervolt system: MassCombi shore power charger, Solar ChargeMaster controller, two (2) Mastervolt 270 AGM batteries. We swapped the AGM's for a previous-model Mastervolt 5000 Wh (360 Ah) battery, a couple of Mastervolt Mac-Plus DC-to-DC chargers (AGM start battery to MLI, and MLI to AGM start), the relay, etc.

We have 840 watts solar, dual Yamaha 25 hp outboards, no generator. A Lite boat, with primary power gen via the solar. Refrigeration onboard uses a lot of amps in the summertime. What we were experiencing is that solar would come on in the morning in bulk, shift to absorption in a relatively-short time, and then the charge amps would just start dropping off due to the impedance of the two large AGM's. On some overcast days this wouldn't let us get to full charge before dusk, and the next morning we would start off with even greater cumulative amp hours consumed. In bright, sunny skies, not usually an issue. In anything less, the Honda gen might have to come out. But even then, the MassCombi wouldn't be in bulk phase for long, before we started the absorption throttling of the current.

In the first two years, we completely failed two sets of Mastervolt 225 Ah AGM batteries. Mastervolt was very good at warranty replacement, and New Zealand tech even got involved with manufacturer reviewing systems, etc. The third set, we made a bunch of system changes, removed the VSR and set the outboards only to run to the start battery (and then a MacPlus to transfer charge to the house bank), replaced a faulty solar controller. All of these might have been culprits in our AGM failure, but I also think we were chronically undercharged. We also put everything on Masterbus system so we could datalog. The third round of AGM's were the 270's, and in hindsight we wanted the extra capacity, but underestimated how much more impedance there is with the 270 Ah vs the 225 Ah. At that point, since we were only an additional MacPlus and a relay away from an MLI system, we made the jump.

Compared to the AGM, the MLI has essentially no impedance. It will take whatever the solar controller can send it. Yesterday, at the end of the bulk period at 98% SOC, we got a peak of 730 watts out of 840 watts of panels, or 53 amps from the controller. We are usually at 100% SOC by 1 pm each afternoon. Which might not sound like much, but we have a faulty freezer that runs almost continuously during daylight, which is a steady current draw. (That is scheduled for replacement.)

So that's our Lithium conversion justification - the charge profile. For a boat that doesn't have a generator, nor big alternators. And not an excessive amount of solar. We are happy with ours as well.

[donradcliffe]

I am delivering a race boat back from Hawaii this summer, and they have upgraded to Mastervolt Life batteries for the house. There is still a separate alternator and small AGM for starting the motor, and there is no solar.

They are very happy with the new system, which requires only one hour of engine time per day. However, I am always thinking about what if scenarios, and if the boat only has one 400 ahr battery, I am concerned about reliability. I can rewire to run the boat off the AGM, but that will probably mean motoring about 8 hours per day, with the risk of total system failure if the AGM gets too discharged. I will probably throw a small jumpstart battery in my luggage just in case.

For the Mastervolt users, are most failures due to BMS/protective systems, or are they cell failures? Would it be worthwhile to bring a Daly 200amp BMS as a spare so I can recover from a smart system that doesn't want to work?

[Journeyman]

Grace,

Nice installation, who did it?

Is this a full MasterVolt install with MV voltage regulators and alternators communicating with the MV batteries over a MasterBus to issue STOP CHARGE commands to the alts and Combi in order to make the system safe?

From the picture it looks like the batteries are in the engine compartment? If so, that would be a problem in the tropics with 150° engine compartment temperatures.

Do you have a components list off the top of your head?

We are considering the same conversion and have been going back and forth on the justification.

We got 10 years from our TPPL AGMs our our all electric battery boat (diesel engine propulsion) with aircon, all electric galley, electric outboards, etc.

So TPPL AGMs longevity is no concern, but the promise of less weight and voltage droop when running high loads is attractive.

Thanks!

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I am delivering a race boat back from Hawaii this summer, and they have upgraded to Mastervolt Life batteries for the house. There is still a separate alternator and small AGM for starting the motor, and there is no solar.

They are very happy with the new system, which requires only one hour of engine time per day. However, I am always thinking about what if scenarios, and if the boat only has one 400 ahr battery, I am concerned about reliability. I can rewire to run the boat off the AGM, but that will probably mean motoring about 8 hours per day, with the risk of total system failure if the AGM gets too discharged. I will probably throw a small jumpstart battery in my luggage just in case.

For the Mastervolt users, are most failures due to BMS/protective systems, or are they cell failures? Would it be worthwhile to bring a Daly 200amp BMS as a spare so I can recover from a smart system that doesn't want to work?

Not aware of any failures, so can't answer that. Our original AGM setup was two 225 Ah batteries as a house bank, and a 130 Ah as a start battery. Each had an isolation switch, plus there was a emergency parallel switch that would commingle everything. I left these switches in place, and if for some reason the MLI goes offline, I can open the relay to isolate it, and then parallel the house and start systems. I also put a "DO NOT USE" sticker next to the parallel switch. If it gets to this point, the two Yamaha outboards have alternators that put out about 7 amps each, directly to the start AGM. System could survive on that. Plus the solar during the daylight.

[sailjumanji]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

Grace,

Nice installation, who did it?

Is this a full MasterVolt install with MV voltage regulators and alternators communicating with the MV batteries over a MasterBus to issue STOP CHARGE commands to the alts and Combi in order to make the system safe?

I don't know about Grace's setup, but I suspect very similar to ours. There is a long list of "events" programmed into the MLI to stop chargers, open the relay (to isolate the MLI), etc.

Mastervolt requires installation of their relay (which is controlled by the MLI), and a fuse, or no warranty on the battery. My understanding is that warranty also requires program by a licensed marine electrician. Ours was programmed by Seawind, with the tech using a Mastervolt code to get into the software. We had an online session whereby they took over my computer and MasterAdjust software, and programmed everything. If you look at Fisheries Supply, for instance, they will not sell you a Mastervolt MLI unless you have a marine certified electrician (I don't know the exact terminology) to receive it and install it. Otherwise they say the warranty is void. Everything points to this MLI not being a DIY install.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by GoneDiving

I'm a lithium fanboy but agree that the premium charged by 'drop in' or top tier suppliers is outrageous. Especially so when you compare prices for component parts.

Not necessarily. Once you start reading some of the horror stories about buying off ali express etc and take into account a 2-3 month delivery time, suddenly drop in LFP with a guarantee becomes cost effective.

Rod Collins (Mainesail) makes the point that grade A cells are not available retail directly from the factory to the leisure market in small quantities. What is available are lots of seconds out the back of the factory which are then "labelled" as a retailer class A and sold on. Someone is buying these batteries and there are probably a lot of them about.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Seafarer7

Because I bought them and I installed them
on SV Grace when I owned the vessel :-) Along with the charge controller, the Hurricane combo hydronic heater, new Garmin electronics, etc. Surely you remember me - direct PO of SV Grace ? :-)

A.N.- you scamp!

Put something in your signature so we know who you are. PM me an update on your fine self and current adventures.

[SV__Grace]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

Grace,

Nice installation, who did it? Is this a full MasterVolt install with MV voltage regulators and alternators communicating with the MV batteries over a MasterBus to issue STOP CHARGE commands to the alts and Combi in order to make the system safe?
From the picture it looks like the batteries are in the engine compartment? If so, that would be a problem in the tropics with 150° engine compartment temperatures. Do you have a components list off the top of your head?

Our electrician is Jim Jensen of Everything Yacht, based in SF Bay, the guy is a friggin genius.

He did a complete electrical and electronic refit of our boat before we left SF Bay to go cruising with a complete B&G electronics suite and Mastervolt system.

The ONLY things we have in our electrical system that is NOT Mastervolt is our engine alternator, isolation transformer(s), generator and outlets. We have the combi inverter and separate charger that provides total 200 amps of charging, 10x10s, programmable digital switches, Easy View, solar controller, you name it and Grace is tricked out with it. I love integrated systems where everything is designed to work together, trying to cobble different components from different manufacturers is a PIA.

[more]

Originally Posted by SV__Grace

Here's a photo of our new setup. Two batteries would have been fine but three gives us longer between charging, more capacity, redundancy (if one dies the other two will do us fine).

I know it's a high price tag for most folks, but to us it's worth it. If being a full time cruiser living on the hook and off the grid is NOT your lifestyle, this is probably NOT worth it for you.

First - congrats nice setup. Mastervolt is nice, easy to work but expensive
but mastervolt show everything usually we work only with Motoryacht and Superyacht. your setup if you use like AGM to 50% last 15-20 year minimum
only in charge change setup from 3,6V to 3,55 you don't need 100% charge is lot better 90-95% charge . My Winston 400 ah 12 setup is lot cheaper when I bay be 3200€ now is 1,747.77 € + tax
Chinese Evo 400ah 12v 8x lifepo4 200Ah US $655.20 + tax
this is cheaper from lead and only 50 kg

CALB 200Ah 3.2V SE200AH top excellent battery in real 220ah only 600$ door to door with tax
600$ for premium battery with factory balanced Internal Resistance 0,1-0,2
possible CC fast charging 1 hour

[Journeyman]

Grace,

Thanks for coming back.

How did Jim handle the MV system interface to your non-mV engine alternator and voltage regulator?

Specifically, what happens when your MV batteries are full, or see a problem, and they want the alternator to STOP CHARGE?

My assumption is that all charging sources need to be under control of the MV batteries.

Also, how does he protect the diodes in the alternator if the MV batteries disconnect from the system for some reason?

Presumably these 2 issues are solved if you were to install a MV voltage regulator and alternator.

Thanks, I am trying to decide whether to scrap my Balmar alternators (twin 150A models) and my Balmar regulator in favor of MV alternators and voltage regulators.

I am a little reluctant to do this as the MV equivalents are about 28% less output than the Balmars, and might necessitate messing with the support brackets.

On the other hand I’d have an ALL MV system if I do so.

Decisions, decisions [emoji52]

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by newhaul

Noticed an important part of the chart was missing on the top second half .

And no fla doesn't Winn when you take into account the life cycles and usable Whr vs cost .

The main problem with that chart is that out in the real world those lead acid cycle life numbers need to be cut at least in half. The lab data from lead acid battery manufacturers is Disney Fairy Tail level. The only LA battery that can come close to lab numbers is the Firefly or massive 2V GEL cells.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

The main problem with that chart is that out in the real world those lead acid cycle life numbers need to be cut at least in half. The lab data from lead acid battery manufacturers is Disney Fairy Tail level. The only LA battery that can come close to lab numbers is the Firefly or massive 2V GEL cells.

Hey Rod
When we get out there the charts all go out the window.
At least the chart gives a base idea to make a semi informed decision .