Lead is dead

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

The advantage of lithium is much greater Amp-hrs in the same weight/volume. This comes with a disadvantage of the need to reconfigure, and likely upgrading, one’s charging systems, and basic cost. Aa someone who knows what their electrical needs are, I have no need to greatly expand my Amp-hrs. Lead-acid does just fine, so what is the compelling reason to switch?

In that use-case the biggest advantage to LFP is not having to care how often the batteries get to 100% charge. With lead if you don't get there often enough their lifespan starts to get much shorter, but no such issue with LFP.

[smj]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

This is my issue with making the shift; it’s not just about the batteries, it’s about the whole charging system. In my case, my old alternator certainly has no lithium profile. Nor does my shore-power AC charger. My solar controller is good, but I’m not sure about my wind controller.

I could keep a starter batter, connected to the older chargers, and then DC-DC charge the lithium bank. More complications, and more cost…

I think lithium looks great, and likely will make the switch, but it’s not as simple as dropping in the new batteries.

A friend of mine uses this.
https://www.emilyandclarksadventure.com/bbms
Not sure if the alternator would be a problem but all other charge sources can be standard lead acid friendly.
For me the switch from lead acid to lithium was like switching from a standard marine head to a composter,.

[massnspace]

Lead is ALIVE!! [Pb]!

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by Fuss

...That’s really what this forum is for isn’t it…

Protects the old tech thinking and shoot down the new innovative improvements...

I won't argue with any of your other points, but this one I take exception to.

Yes, cruisers tend to be a conservative lot. But that doesn't mean we don't embrace new tech. In fact I made that my career.

But in the final analysis, tech for tech's sake is just a hobby.

You are correct that my use case is different from a sailboat. I motor everywhere. I arrive at the anchorage with my house bank topped off. If weather keeps me at anchor for more than 24 hours, I'll run the genset for an hour at supper time, and maybe another hour in the morning.

The alternators, regulators, inverter/charger and generator are sunk costs. They all work fine. There's room and weight-carrying capacity to replace the existing FLA's. They were cheap enough that if I feel like it's time to go LFP (or some newer tech) in a year or two, I won't feel bad. For now, I'm back at my original design capacity and can focus on cruising instead of engineering a new system. I'm most certainly not sad about that.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by CaptTom

I won't argue with any of your other points, but this one I take exception to.

Yes, cruisers tend to be a conservative lot. But that doesn't mean we don't embrace new tech. In fact I made that my career.

But in the final analysis, tech for tech's sake is just a hobby.

You are correct that my use case is different from a sailboat. I motor everywhere. I arrive at the anchorage with my house bank topped off. If weather keeps me at anchor for more than 24 hours, I'll run the genset for an hour at supper time, and maybe another hour in the morning.

The alternators, regulators, inverter/charger and generator are sunk costs. They all work fine. There's room and weight-carrying capacity to replace the existing FLA's. They were cheap enough that if I feel like it's time to go LFP (or some newer tech) in a year or two, I won't feel bad. For now, I'm back at my original design capacity and can focus on cruising instead of engineering a new system. I'm most certainly not sad about that.

Ok, and the mistake is in your case too.
So if you had installed lifepo4, you could have set your alternator regulator to charge to 3.4v per cell 3.4x8= 27.2v, the BMS hvc set to 3.6vx8=28.8v. 10 minutes work for 3 times the capacity, one third of the space.
You would never have to run your generator daily again. A huge incentive and improvement by just adjusting your alternator regulator.

You said 11 years not a year or two, so you should feel bad, it was a huge mistake and missed opportunity.

[CaptTom]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Ok, and the mistake is in your case too.
So if you had installed lifepo4, you could have set your alternator regulator to charge to 3.4v per cell 3.4x8= 27.2v, the BMS hvc set to 3.6vx8=28.8v. 10 minutes work for 3 times the capacity, one third of the space.
You would never have to run your generator daily again. A huge incentive and improvement by just adjusting your alternator regulator.

You said 11 years not a year or two, so you should feel bad, it was a huge mistake and missed opportunity.

My 1980's era regulators and inverter/charger don't have a profile for LFP. I don't need the space and weight isn't an issue. I don't think I missed an opportunity. For a small investment, I bought myself some time to wait for a better one. Maybe one will present itself next year. But if not, I can now wait for up to 10 or maybe even 11 years. Don't worry about my feelings, I'm quite OK with this.

[sailorboy1]

why do people get annoyed about what others install in their boat?

[Fuss]

i don’t think he’s annoyed sailorboy1, probably more disappointed that he missed the opportunity not to run his generator twice a day for the next 11 years.
well, I would be!!
your 80s regulator doesn’t need a lithium profile, just set the bulk to 27.2v.
perhaps you can give these heavy smelly golf carts back and move with the times…

[leecea]

Originally Posted by Fuss

i don’t think he’s annoyed sailorboy1

[BlueH2Obound]

One of the biggest advantages, which has been mentioned above is how fast the LiFePO4 battery bank recharges!
It wasn't about the weight savings.

For us, the decision to go to LiFePO4 was simple. We had just purchased the boat, so we knew there were upgrades we needed to do for the type of use we envisioned.

• The boat did not have any inverter installed
• The 12v battery charger was old and failing
• The house AGM battery bank was still good, but about 6 years old
• The installed alternator didn't work (regulator was bad).

So there was enough "stuff" that needed doing anyway, that we chose to go with Lithium from the start.

We went with:

• 1,200ah of Dragonfly LiFePO4 batteries from Battleborn
• Victron 12/5000 inverter charger programmed for the Dragonfly LiFePO4 charging profile
• Victron 3600 Isolation transformer
• Victron Cerbo GX
• Victron BMS 712, battery monitoring system
• Victron 100/30 Solar Charge Controllers (8 each) all programmed for the Dragonfly LiFePO4 charging profile
• Silfab 360 Solar Panels (8 each)
• 10 ga wiring for solar panels with CB protection between panels and controllers and again between controllers and battery bus.
• All new battery buses, 4/0 wiring, etc
• Balmar 210 amp large frame alternator, (derated to 135 amp output) with external Balmar voltage regulator programmed for the Dragonfly LiFePO4 charging profile

This was all a little over 3 years ago, about 11,000 nm cruising, full time cruising, with about a year of that anchored out.

Using LiFePO4, with the faster charging rate increased the effective efficiency of all the charging avenues, solar, alternator, and engine driven or aux engine driven generator.

Our boat (and our lifestyle) is a power hog. We have a full sized fridge, a small freezer, an ice maker, and a 10.5 cu ft chest freezer on the aft deck as well as two AC units, a water maker and Starlink. We've seldom had to run the generator unless we are using the AC units, and even there, we can one one Air Conditioner on the solar output alone if needed.

For us, LiFePO4 was a no brainer. If we were to do it again today, the only thing I would change in the system is I would go with different batteries. No complaints with the Dragonfly batteries from Battleborn, but there are ones out there now that are just as good, for a fraction of the price.

LiFePO4 is not for everyone. The initial cost can be quite high, especially if your existing infrastructure is working just fine with FLA or AGM batteries, but with the cost of LiFePO4 batteries coming down, it's doable in more situations than not nowadays. It's not for everyone, but we believe it was the correct choice for US. YMMV

People get wrapped up with "Return on Investment". News Flash: A boat, except in rare circumstances, is a "Depreciating Asset", NOT an Investment. For us, it is about quality of life, not any investment.

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by leecea

Hmmm, yes you a right Leecea, we should be annoyed as well.

Running your generator twice a day for the next 11 years is very environmentally unfriendly. It will annoy a huge population of fellow boaters enjoying their quite anchorages over this time. It will cost 15000 dollars in fuel and another 15000 in generator maintenance.

Sailorboy1, your laissez faire attitude to this should also be condemned.

There Leecea, I hope I’ve redeemed myself, none of us should condone such a waste of resources and pollution.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Sailorboy1, your laissez faire attitude to this should also be condemned.
.

It is strange days when boaters feel their way has to be all boaters way.

BTW I cruised for 6+ years with lead acid batteries and rarely ran an engine or generator just to charge batteries. Stop being so misplaced judgmental.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by smj

For me the switch from lead acid to lithium was like switching from a standard marine head to a composter,.

Ah, now I get it 😉.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

In that use-case the biggest advantage to LFP is not having to care how often the batteries get to 100% charge. With lead if you don't get there often enough their lifespan starts to get much shorter, but no such issue with LFP.

That’s an excellent point, but doesn’t lithium also have it’s own charging challenges? Total charge cycles, and optimal charge states, as with various handheld devices?

I’m actually looking at replacing my old lead-acid batteries soon, so am considering lithium. But I know my old alternator won’t work with lithium, and nor will my existing shorepower charger. My windmill has a basic voltage-regulated controller. Would this be OK for lithium? It is basically a bulk charger that delivers erratic amounts of power. The old charger I have that I know would work is my Victron solar controller.

[emilecantin]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

That’s an excellent point, but doesn’t lithium also have it’s own charging challenges? Total charge cycles, and optimal charge states, as with various handheld devices?

I’m actually looking at replacing my old lead-acid batteries soon, so am considering lithium. But I know my old alternator won’t work with lithium, and nor will my existing shorepower charger. My windmill has a basic voltage-regulated controller. Would this be OK for lithium? It is basically a bulk charger that delivers erratic amounts of power. The old charger I have that I know would work is my Victron solar controller.

Lithiums don't like extremes. High voltage, low voltage, high temperature, low temperature. For absolute longest life, keep them partially-charged, between 20% and 80%. For very good life, keep them between 0 and 100%. Discharging them to -1%, or charging to 101% will kill them almost immediately. It's not much more complex than that, and there's a BMS whose job it is to babysit these batteries.


I've found that the partially-charged "happy place" of Lithiums fits very well with the natural usage patterns on a cruising boat. Boats that easily reach a full charge every day (like trawlers) or that spend most of their time plugged on a charger at a marina (like daysailers) won't see this benefit. They might appreciate better power density, though (esp. something like a racer).


As I mentioned upthread, get a DC-DC charger and you don't have to replace all chargers right away. See this article for more details: https://marinehowto.com/easy-lifepo4-conversion/