LiFeP04, your complete system cost

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Some also seem to be comparing expensive american made agm batteries with Chinese made LP4

My comparison using Chinese made tbb agm bought from a major Victron wholesaler in Australia.


https://www.evworks.com.au/winston-400ah-lifepo4-cells

Using the above cells and pricing to get what I have now


LP4 16 x $720 to get 800ah @ 24v = $11520
Vs
AGM 8 x $420 to get 880ah @ 24v = $3360

From what I have read with LP4 600ah would suffice but that's still $8600

For me we are no where near close yet.
Hopefully one day.

Well, I included AGM just as a data point -- I wouldn't consider them myself. Golf cart batteries are definitely the most bang for the buck in lead -- much cheaper and more durable. Or perhaps L-16 cells for a big bank.


But why are you comparing 800 a/h of lithium with 880 a/h of AGM? That's not an apples to apple comparison. 880 a/h of AGM is equivalent to 550 a/h of lithium, if we use 50% usable to nominal for lead and 80% for lithium.



Even 600 amp/hours of Winston cells only costs €2600 in Europe -- see here: https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/?cur=1


Maybe you could order it from there?

[john61ct]

Does anyone know of quality LFP that are **not** made in China.

I mean the cells themselves, not "assembly" of components.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

.


But why are you comparing 800 a/h of lithium with 880 a/h of AGM? That's not an apples to apple comparison. 880 a/h of AGM is equivalent to 550 a/h of lithium, if we use 50% usable to nominal for lead and 80% for lithium.



Even 600 amp/hours of Winston cells only costs €2600 in Europe -- see here: https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah-200Ah/?cur=1


Maybe you could order it from there?

I did say 600 ah would do, you even quoted it.
And I'd need 16 to get to 24v so it'd still end up more expensive than buying the 800ah here.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

I did say 600 ah would do, you even quoted it.
And I'd need 16 to get to 24v so it'd still end up more expensive than buying the 800ah here.

not to nit pick but the math doesn't work out as written
But its actually 5,205.92 Euro =8,407.94AUD plus shipping of course.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by newhaul

not to nit pick but the math doesn't work out as written
But its actually 5,205.92 Euro =8,407.94AUD plus shipping of course.

Not to nit pick but add in tax for a couple of grand more again

[DumnMad]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

880 a/h of AGM is equivalent to 550 a/h of lithium, if we use 50% usable to nominal for lead and 80% for lithium.

Is this a reasonable comparison for running a 125W autopilot concurrently with a 175W fridge/freezer ?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Not to nit pick but add in tax for a couple of grand more again

tax is not a system cost .if I order them from over seas I don't pay sales tax on them .

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by newhaul

tax is not a system cost .if I order them from over seas I don't pay sales tax on them .

Buying over the internet
Things you buy over the internet will have the same rules, duties and screening processes applied as any other import.

You need to know that:

For goods with a value of AUD1000 or less, there are no duties, taxes or charges to pay at the border.
From 1 July 2018, the Goods and Services Tax (GST) may apply to low value goods when imported from overseas by consumers in Australia. However, the GST will be charged at the point of sale and not at the border.

For goods with a value over AUD1000, you will need to fill out an Import Declaration, and pay duties, taxes and charges at the border.
You will need to pay duties and taxes on some goods (like tobacco or alcohol) regardless of their value
Certain types of goods are not allowed to be brought into Australia, or else need special permits
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/impo/buyi

Seems you should be, if honest, in the US as well
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...ack-to-the-u.s.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Buying over the internet
Things you buy over the internet will have the same rules, duties and screening processes applied as any other import.

You need to know that:

For goods with a value of AUD1000 or less, there are no duties, taxes or charges to pay at the border.
From 1 July 2018, the Goods and Services Tax (GST) may apply to low value goods when imported from overseas by consumers in Australia. However, the GST will be charged at the point of sale and not at the border.

For goods with a value over AUD1000, you will need to fill out an Import Declaration, and pay duties, taxes and charges at the border.
You will need to pay duties and taxes on some goods (like tobacco or alcohol) regardless of their value
Certain types of goods are not allowed to be brought into Australia, or else need special permits
https://www.homeaffairs.gov.au/trav/impo/buyi

Seems you should be, if honest, in the US as well
https://help.cbp.gov/app/answers/det...ack-to-the-u.s.

the thousand dollar part applies here as well but thanks to not being in Australia many things you posted don't apply to me in the USA . Another positive for me is I own a trucking company so some of the import fees don't apply or can be written off on annual income taxes.

[a64pilot]

Guys Maine Sail laid it out for us US guys.
I can replace my 660 AH lead bank with Lithium for $2,700.
I’ll still wait until my lead shows signs of dying, that should be in three years.
Hopefully by then it will be cheaper. I assume my charge sources are compatible as they are all programmable?
Magnum MS2812
Balmar 614
Outback 80
Sterling Pro Charge Ultra 60 amp.


God, without getting into that 10,000 response thread, is there a decent how to published? I assume maybe that there is a supplier that will ship cells already balanced? To show my stupidity, shouldn’t a BMS balance cells at each charging? My kilowatt Li-Po Dive scooter did, or said it did anyway.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

You guys are including the capital expense of converting your electrical system to be able to take lithium, including the BMS.

It doesn’t matter, it is an expense not required to stay with current battery chemistry, although nothing lasts forever, so they may be a recurring expense.
I know my alternator and battery chargers etc have a life limit for example.

However the relevance is how much do I have to have in the bank to go to Lithium? Cause once you start, it’s nice if you can afford to finish.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Is this a reasonable comparison for running a 125W autopilot concurrently with a 175W fridge/freezer ?

>> 880 a/h of AGM is equivalent to 550 a/h of lithium, if we use 50% usable to nominal for lead and 80% for lithium.

The above was about storage, not load current.

440AH usable in both cases.

If your 300W (~24A @12V) runs 24hrs a day then you'd come up short, but of course it doesn't.

You need to multiply Amps * how many hours out of 24 it runs, or better put an AH counter to log your loads, in coming up with an energy budget.

All this is OT here, so start your own thread to ask for help.

[seandepagnier]

Originally Posted by travellerw

My 400Ah CALB bank costs are very similar to this. Ours was about $3000.

If you get 18650 cells, you would need about 600 of them to build a 400Ah bank but it cost only about $2000.

Originally Posted by DumnMad

Is this a reasonable comparison for running a 125W autopilot concurrently with a 175W fridge/freezer ?

This must be a sorry autopilot. My autopilot uses 1-5 watts depending on seas on my boat. When we tried it on a 50ft ketch using a hydraulic pump it used about 5x as much power, so it's still always below 50 watts, and hydraulic is not efficient.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by boat_alexandra

If you get 18650 cells, you would need about 600 of them to build a 400Ah bank but it cost only about $2000.

OK for land-based hobbyists.

Not in production on a boat.

And are you even talking LFP? Most cylindricals aren't, therefore dangerous wrt thermal runaway.

[evm1024]

That is a key point to be sure that if you do choose to use 18650 form factor cells that you use LiFePO4.

Our local surplus place has some at about 2 bucks each and these guys sell them for $3/

https://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4...rocwvcqavd_bwe