LiFeP04, your complete system cost

[Rumpi]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

Well this price includes EU VAT, for non-EU citicen, you can buy it for almost 20% less, so shipping might make sense, even if it looks expensive in the first place...

Sorry but it's the other way around. The prices shown are ex-VAT, and for a non-business customer inside the EU, 21% VAT has to be paid.

[geoffa]

My 16kwhr system not including my labour was about $3k for 160 pouches lifepo4, $2k for 2.4kw solar, $2k for inverters/mppt/cct breakers/copper/energy monitoring. It's been working fine for two years. $A. Probably cheaper now.
Geoff
FIEAust, CPEng
PS trick is sizing to minimise maximum current.

[arsenelupiga]

400 AH = 4211 AUD. This is cost of every modification & all hardware. My boat is well setup for this modification so very little changes.

Compared to replacing with same gel batteries, these have to last 40 % longer to break even.

Now, lets see if all these glorifying statements about LFP turn out to be true.

[Dev0n60]

We commissioned our 400 ah LFP pack March 2016. Very, very pleased. It replaced a 660 ah Lifeline AGM bank. Significant difference in weight.
The entire system cost about $6000.00 New Zealand Dollars.
Imported 4 Winston WB-LYP400AHA-B cells from EVLithium in China. $500NZD each for the 4 cells and $500NZD for air freight. Very impressed with their service.
Designed & Built the compression case from aluminium 6mm sheet $140.00NZD
Contactors, Mini relays, wiring, Orion Jr BMS, CanBus setup.... about $3000.00 NZD.
On the boat now cruising for almost 30 years. Over the years with lead acid tech I was always dreading the diminishing performance of the batteries and the huge cost to replace.
The LFP cells themselves were about 30% less expensive (here in NZ) than the Lifeline AGMs we had before. The Lifeline batts lasted about 4-5 years with ever diminishing performance.
After 2.5 years of the the LFP I no longer worry about energy.
The 400ah Winston pack is the equivalent of a 900 ah lead acid pack because of more usable capacity.
I am at 186 pack cycles since commissioning the system. 2.5 years ago. These cells are rated for 2000-5000 cycles depending on depth of discharge.
The LFP is NOT a simple drop in replacement. Significant changes need to be made to your boats charging systems to protect them and the pack.

[geoffa]

Good story.
The last sentence the most important. This technology must be designed from the ground up, they are in effect zero impedance devices, meaning they can destroy conventional charging and loads very easily. Noting designing a low average load house system has a quite different design set than designing for a high load traction system. My observation is there is a lot of fake news out there that tends to compare apples with artichokes!!
Geoff,
PS eclectic application of design rules is for amateurs

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by Dev0n60

Imported 4 Winston WB-LYP400AHA-B cells from EVLithium in China.

Interesting... This is the same place I bought my cells and had a completely different experience. Completely abysmal. Actually worse than abysmal. By orders of magnatude its the worst service I have ever had from any company ANYWHERE. We have also met at least 2 other people that had a similar experience as ours. I'm glad to hear that someone at least had a good experience with them.

Also glad to hear your bank is working for you.

[newhaul]

Ok just ordered the cells 308 for 16 25 ah cells to make my 4s4p 100ah bank
Camel brand with 10 year warranty
Still waiting on price for the bms .
Already have solar and programmable PWM controller so that is not a cost for converting.
Will add pictures when I have them
Here is the spec sheet on the bms I will be using
Cirque on it please .

[John Williams]

.We are in Australia so these figures are Aussie dollars for a 300 ah battery system including battery, dc/dc 60 amp regulator, 60 amp charger (for shore power) $9,700 including all taxes and labour for installation by marine electrician. Very expensive. At today's rates it is $us6,900.

[Dev0n60]

Originally Posted by Dev0n60

We commissioned our 400 ah LFP pack March 2016. Very, very pleased. It replaced a 660 ah Lifeline AGM bank. Significant difference in weight.
The entire system cost about $6000.00 New Zealand Dollars.
Imported 4 Winston WB-LYP400AHA-B cells from EVLithium in China. $500NZD each for the 4 cells and $500NZD for air freight. Very impressed with their service.
Designed & Built the compression case from aluminium 6mm sheet $140.00NZD
Contactors, Mini relays, wiring, Orion Jr BMS, CanBus setup.... about $3000.00 NZD.
On the boat now cruising for almost 30 years. Over the years with lead acid tech I was always dreading the diminishing performance of the batteries and the huge cost to replace.
The LFP cells themselves were about 30% less expensive (here in NZ) than the Lifeline AGMs we had before. The Lifeline batts lasted about 4-5 years with ever diminishing performance.
After 2.5 years of the the LFP I no longer worry about energy.
The 400ah Winston pack is the equivalent of a 900 ah lead acid pack because of more usable capacity.
I am at 186 pack cycles since commissioning the system. 2.5 years ago. These cells are rated for 2000-5000 cycles depending on depth of discharge.
The LFP is NOT a simple drop in replacement. Significant changes need to be made to your boats charging systems to protect them and the pack.

Another important point that must be considered when looking at 'cost' is the efficiency of the LFP technology compared to Lead Acid. The LFP cells are nearly 100% efficient. This means not having to waste fuel charging via geneset/engine, complete usability of renewable energy when it is available.
With lead acid it always seems that much more is required to recharge.
The key point is to stay out of the 'knees' in the charge/discharge curve with LFP. It is a completely different way of looking at battery use than what we have been accustomed to with lead acid.

[daletournier]

How do insurance companies view upgrading to Lifepo?

I'm not suggesting they are dangerous BUT being relatively new and seemingly quite a few DIY setups combined with a lack of education in the area I'm wondering if insurance companies have had some resistance?

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by daletournier

How do insurance companies view upgrading to Lifepo?

I'm not suggesting they are dangerous BUT being relatively new and seemingly quite a few DIY setups combined with a lack of education in the area I'm wondering if insurance companies have had some resistance?

no issues here they insure ev cars don't they.

[a64pilot]

If your Insurence company requires your electrical system to be IAW AYBC standards, your in trouble.
If your Insurence company requires a survey, you may be in trouble.
I suspicion most obtain Insurence and then later convert to LFP, Insurence company doesn’t know.
Issue may come when they change Insurence companies or Insurence requires a new survey.

[Dev0n60]

OK.... interesting question .... "Insurance" ... to be fair, one could start an entire thread on Insurance.
For my part, most of the 30 years we have been cruising we have NOT been insured and spent the $$ on good kit/gear instead.
At present we are insured here in New Zealand.
I have asked the insurer the very question regarding DIY: "Am I covered if systems/gear installed on my boat are done by me?"
Their response was "yes". They based their answer (I have been informed) on my experience with boats over the past 30+ years. They seemed OK with it.
Personally, I would not 'hold my breath' waiting for an insurance company to pay on a claim. From my limited experience they make their ,money collecting premiums, not paying claims. I know a lot of 'insured' people who faithfully paid their premiums for years & years, only to find that when they actually had a claim, the insurance people dragged & dragged their feet. Kick you when your down!
Sorry to digress!
Good luck with your efforts.
The best insurance is to be well informed and equiped!!!

[john61ct]

Newhaul, sorry but I don't see source links to the components of your setup - cells, BMS - as discussed in the other thread here either?

If you don't want to reveal such details I completely understand, just say so.

[Dev0n60]

Hi there,
The BMS is an Orion Jr.... Go to :Orion Jr. BMS | Orion Li-Ion Battery Management System

The Cells are WB-LYP400AHA-B Winston Cells that I sourced from the China distributor directly.... Go to : Winston Battery - Evlithium

The other bits & pieces (contactors, CanBus, micro-relays, relays...etc) from Trans Pro Marine... the brilliant guy who owns the company (Cameron Murray) designed the wiring/ component layout.... go to : Renewable Energy, Green Energy, Wind & Solar Power - Buy Online

Trans Marine Pro will want to sell the entire kit as a system, which is fine. But if you are electrically/mechanically/ DIY inclined you can save some $$ and put it in yourself. One extremely important caveat: the LFP upgrade is a entire system upgrade. These are not lead acid tech. Research, research, research first before spending any $$$. One of the best places to get info that I have found is from : https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

The work and investment is worth it .... we have just passed the 3 year mark since commissioning the LFP pack and are extremely pleased. Compared to the Lifeline AGMs we had before, they are less expensive and have absolutely no loss of capacity. They perform as if new. We capacity tested with a lab grade load tester last month at the 3 year anniversary of the install: 445 Ah's delivered (30amp load over a period of 14hrs 50min). Very impressive. The 660ah Lifeline AGMs would not have even come close to this type of performance after 3 years of hard use. Not to mention the usable capacity differences.

Hope this helps.