Lifepo4 upgrade?

[Chotu]

Sorry for all the threads. It’s a mad dash.

I discovered more neglect for my boat. My helper who cycles the batteries very hard on a daily basis for entertainment and whatnot never once watered them.

They were bone dry when I opened them just now. The first one was down half a gallon.

These are brand new Trojan T105‘s before he got a hold of them. Only a couple months old.

What do you think the prognosis is? Can I get a normal life out of them? Or are they done?

They are working properly, but they were pretty much halfway empty.

Trying to remain patient about the situation, and look forward.

This also ties into my Possible electric refrigerator upgrade. If my batteries are toast, and I need new ones, I might as well get 300 amp hours of Lifepo4.

I can run those all the way down to 0%?

[dlj]

Hard to say really but I'd fill them and run a good equalization cycle on them. Then see how they respond - they may well be OK - here's to hoping. Of course, the switch to LiFePo4 is a good way to go for liveaboards. No, you can't take them to 0%. But you can take them down much further than lead acids. (I'm thinking 10% but don't quote me...)

dj

[CharlieJ]

It won't hurt to try and recover them but I don't think you can. Essentially, once the plates are uncovered the uncovered portion is no longer active. You may be able to charge and then equalize. You are going to need hydrometer or refractometer to check specific gravity during your recovery process.
Suggest you call the battery manufacturer's tech support for advice.

[donradcliffe]

Those batteries did not boil their water away from cycling. If they boiled their water away from being plugged in 24/7 with too high a float voltage that would be your fault.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

Those batteries did not boil their water away from cycling. If they boiled their water away from being plugged in 24/7 with too high a float voltage that would be your fault.

Nope. All voltages are set to Trojan’s specs for bulk, absorption and float on an Outback 60 amp MPPT charge controller.

Float is 13.5V

Bulk charging is higher than it used to be. They changed it to 14.8V

I don’t half ass anything

Regardless of what caused them to dry out over the last 8 months or so, I was hoping a different level of care for the boat would be shown. I didn’t specify it. I guess that’s on me. But doing a 50% cycle on a daily basis and not checking the levels on the battery is just bad seamanship (or dockmanship as it were). I’m disappointed at a few things of this nature I’ve found.

[Tupaia]

What amperage are we talking here, dropping 50% on a daily basis would indicate that the bank is undersized. If you have an MPPT running off of solar this is even worse as there will be a constant input most days so if you are getting down to 50% at anytime then the demand sure out weighs the supply.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Tupaia

What amperage are we talking here, dropping 50% on a daily basis would indicate that the bank is undersized. If you have an MPPT running off of solar this is even worse as there will be a constant input most days so if you are getting down to 50% at anytime then the demand sure out weighs the supply.

None of this matters. The bank was sized for my loads on the boat. (Minimal)

It was pulled down around 150-200 AH every night and nothing from the boat adds to that. So you can infer they are in fact 440AH of Trojan t105 batteries.

That’s just from a big screen laptop running 24/7, a speaker and a box fan the size you’d normally use in a house window all running through the 3000 watt pure sine inverter.

There is no problem to solve here. Just asking if the batteries are gone or not.

In my 30 years or so of sailing, I have never had batteries dry out before because I maintain them. I don’t know if they are gone when they dry out or if they are salvageable. They were pretty much half empty. Or to put a positive spin I guess, they were half full.

Just the laptop and fan if they are on at the same time is 160 AH over an evening.

Which explains why they were getting drawn down.

On top of that, there were a lot of days with a lot of clouds and rain all summer in Florida. That did not help with keeping them charged.

But whatever the cause, I just want to know if the batteries are OK or not after losing half the water part of the electrolyte

[CharlieJ]

The direct answer was given in post #3 so I am adding this anecdotal evidence to explain why they dried out:

I lived aboard for 11 years and cruised the Eastern Caribbean for 3 ½ years. When cruising I had a bank of 6P2S Trojan T105 batteries that I drew down about 500Ahr per day. I had a very carefully controlled Balmar alternator to recharge so the batteries were treated as well as they could be.

Under that usage, I had to add about 2 quarts of distilled water every 10 to 12 days. Since your boat watcher was using significant Ahr, I think there is a parallel between
your bank and mine. Continued discharge/charge w/o adding water simply boiled off the electrolyte over time.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

The direct answer was given in post #3 so I am adding this anecdotal evidence to explain why they dried out:

I lived aboard for 11 years and cruised the Eastern Caribbean for 3 ½ years. When cruising I had a bank of 6P2S Trojan T105 batteries that I drew down about 500Ahr per day. I had a very carefully controlled Balmar alternator to recharge so the batteries were treated as well as they could be.

Under that usage, I had to add about 2 quarts of distilled water every 10 to 12 days. Since your boat watcher was using significant Ahr, I think there is a parallel between
your bank and mine. Continued discharge/charge w/o adding water simply boiled off the electrolyte over time.

Exactly. I have been using these batteries for decades now. I don’t think I burned through as much water as you did, but I use some. It has to be looked at every month in my case and always has on all my boats and all my banks.

[RaymondR]

Fill them back up and put them through a few charge discharge cycles, they'll probably come back.

I had two banks of T105s which tended to dry out because they are unattended for 6-8 months every year. They came back a couple of times and when they reached about 6-7 years I disposed of them. They are pretty tough batteries.

Trojan have an autofill system available, don't know how well it works.

[Chotu]

Due to a number of factors, I think I’m going to go through with the lithium upgrade.

I can save almost 350 pounds if I do that. Because I would have to add another pair of these Trojan T105s to the mix because I’m changing to an electric refrigerator.
I also can carry half the propane and be good for pretty much a whole year cooking.

I have a question about lithium batteries. It says I can’t charge them below 32F/0C.

What is the story with that? What if I winter over somewhere?

Seems somewhat ridiculous that the batteries don’t work in cold weather.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Chotu

Due to a number of factors, I think I’m going to go through with the lithium upgrade.

I can save almost 350 pounds if I do that. Because I would have to add another pair of these Trojan T105s to the mix because I’m changing to an electric refrigerator.
I also can carry half the propane and be good for pretty much a whole year cooking.

I have a question about lithium batteries. It says I can’t charge them below 32F/0C.

What is the story with that? What if I winter over somewhere?

Seems somewhat ridiculous that the batteries don’t work in cold weather.

Do you think you are going to be living in your boat with it being below that temperature inside your boat? I sure don't want to live in my boat below about 55F really. I can deal with say 45F for a short time, but I'd sure want to get some heat going... (talking inside temps here)

If you are planning to spend significant amounts of time in cold regions, then you have to take insulation and heating of the batteries into consideration. By the way, that also works on the hot end also.

What are your plans?

dj

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by dlj

Do you think you are going to be living in your boat with it being below that temperature inside your boat? I sure don't want to live in my boat below about 55F really. I can deal with say 45F for a short time, but I'd sure want to get some heat going... (talking inside temps here)

If you are planning to spend significant amounts of time in cold regions, then you have to take insulation and heating of the batteries into consideration. By the way, that also works on the hot end also.

What are your plans?

dj

What is the limit on the hot end? I didn’t even know about that.

My boat is designed really well. I designed All mechanical things out of the interior of the boat. They don’t belong in there offgassing and stinking things up. They have a locker outside. In the aft cockpit area.

[donradcliffe]

Your battery absorb setting is 2.47 volts/cell, and the float is 2.25 volts per cell. The gassing rate shown is at 68 degrees F and is very strong function of battery temperature.

Table 2 compares the advantages and limitations of various peak voltage settings:

2.30V to 2.35V/cell

Advantages
Maximum service life; battery stays cool; charge temperature can exceed 30°C (86°F).

Limitations
Slow charge time; capacity readings
may be inconsistent and declining
with each cycle. Sulfation may occur
without equalizing charge.

2.40V to 2.45V/cell

Advantages
Higher and more consistent capacity readings; less sulfation.

Limitations
Subject to corrosion and gassing. Needs water refill. Not suitable for charging at high room temperatures, causing severe overcharge.

[dlj]

Originally Posted by Chotu

What is the limit on the hot end? I didn’t even know about that.

My boat is designed really well. I designed All mechanical things out of the interior of the boat. They don’t belong in there offgassing and stinking things up. They have a locker outside. In the aft cockpit area.

Battleborn publishes -4F to 135F. You'd have to see what the specific batteries you're looking into state.

All boat designs have compromises no matter how well they are designed.

Placing your batteries in an aft locker has it's design compromises. There is no such thing as "all good" or "all bad".... (well, there can be exceptions on the bad side I suppose...)

dj