Lithium Batteries and Salt Water Exposure

[Sailor647]

https://www.zerohedge.com/markets/hu...ooded-electric

"Saltwater exposure can trigger combustion in lithium-ion batteries. If possible, transfer your vehicle to higher ground," the post continued.

Hmmm....

[sailingharry]

Interesting. But not overly relevant to this forum. Maybe an electric scooter, or a torquedo. The largest lithium battery with a risk of thermal runaway on most boats is usually a cordless drill or maybe a laptop.

[Sailor647]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Interesting. But not overly relevant to this forum. Maybe an electric scooter, or a torquedo. The largest lithium battery with a risk of thermal runaway on most boats is usually a cordless drill or maybe a laptop.

We know quite a few boats with lithium battery banks. Some insurance companies won't insure boats with lithium battery banks.

https://www.pantaenius.com/de-en/ins...is-important/#

[donradcliffe]

Almost all boat batteries are LiFe technology, and Tesla is converting their car and powerwall batteries to LiFe. Are you aware of any Teslas with LiFe batteries that have had a thermal runaway after exposure to salt water?

[sailorboy1]

Man if my boat fills up enough to flood my batteries I have bigger issues than the batteries themselves to worry about

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

We know quite a few boats with lithium battery banks. Some insurance companies won't insure boats with lithium battery banks.

https://www.pantaenius.com/de-en/ins...is-important/#

Every mention of them in that link is water toys, electric engines , smartphone, tablets etc

No mention of them as house banks because different chemistry is used for house banks.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Sailor647

We know quite a few boats with lithium battery banks. Some insurance companies won't insure boats with lithium battery banks.

https://www.pantaenius.com/de-en/ins...is-important/#

Indeed, insurance companies are struggling with the same misconception you have. Just because insurance companies don't understand and so blacklist LFP batteries doesn't make them dangerous. It makes them hard to insure, which is an entirly differt matter.

My view is that if LFP were actually dangerous, they won't be on my boat even if they are insured. Conversely, since they are inherently safe, I don't care if insurance will cover a fire caused by LFP. 50 miles offshore, I want my batteries to be "safe," not "covered by insurance." Note, I understand in some countries, having LFP makes insurance unobtainable -- an entirely different matter.

[wholybee]

It's amazing that an issue that has been beat to death dozens of times keeps coming up. If I didn't know better, I might suspect that some other industry with a lot to loose to battery power is planting misinformation and spreading fear.

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by sailingharry

Indeed, insurance companies are struggling with the same misconception you have. Just because insurance companies don't understand and so blacklist LFP batteries doesn't make them dangerous. It makes them hard to insure, which is an entirly differt matter.

My view is that if LFP were actually dangerous, they won't be on my boat even if they are insured. Conversely, since they are inherently safe, I don't care if insurance will cover a fire caused by LFP. 50 miles offshore, I want my batteries to be "safe," not "covered by insurance." Note, I understand in some countries, having LFP makes insurance unobtainable -- an entirely different matter.

Completely irrespective of whether LiFePO batteries can, or can not catch fire--ever--your understanding of how marine insurance works in the US is dangerously flawed. If your insurance company has told you they do not insure boats with Li batteries that is exactly what they mean. If you have a claim because you drove the boat up on a rock and it sank, and the adjuster finds Li batteries installed aboard, the underwriters would be completely within their right under marine insurance common law to refund your paid premiums and tell you you have never been insured. So sorry for the misunderstanding.

I have become convinced the REAL reason for insurance companies being so reluctant to cover Li installations--especially owner installed ones--is that many people making the switch have NO IDEA what they are doing and are in way over their head.

All you have to do is read some of the goofy ideas posted on this forum. People installing high amperage DC systems who don't know how to size wire, or calculate fusing, or how to make a proper crimp, etc, etc. Since moving to Li frequently involves a major rework of the boat's electrical system the underwriters just don't trust the average boat owner to do such things even close to right. Honestly, I have to agree with them. A FEW owners can do a fantastic job. Most can not.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Completely irrespective of whether LiFePO batteries can, or can not catch fire--ever--your understanding of how marine insurance works in the US is dangerously flawed. If your insurance company has told you they do not insure boats with Li batteries that is exactly what they mean. If you have a claim because you drove the boat up on a rock and it sank, and the adjuster finds Li batteries installed aboard, the underwriters would be completely within their right under marine insurance common law to refund your paid premiums and tell you you have never been insured. So sorry for the misunderstanding.

I have become convinced the REAL reason for insurance companies being so reluctant to cover Li installations--especially owner installed ones--is that many people making the switch have NO IDEA what they are doing and are in way over their head.

All you have to do is read some of the goofy ideas posted on this forum. People installing high amperage DC systems who don't know how to size wire, or calculate fusing, or how to make a proper crimp, etc, etc. Since moving to Li frequently involves a major rework of the boat's electrical system the underwriters just don't trust the average boat owner to do such things even close to right. Honestly, I have to agree with them. A FEW owners can do a fantastic job. Most can not.

Agreed ! While I have no doubt there are intelligently thought out systems on the water, I have yet to see one. I won't even survey boats with those batteries on board anymore. I've yet to see an installation that was not a s..t show and getting an argument from an owner that has no clue what they have done.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

Completely irrespective of whether LiFePO batteries can, or can not catch fire--ever--your understanding of how marine insurance works in the US is dangerously flawed. If your insurance company has told you they do not insure boats with Li batteries that is exactly what they mean. If you have a claim because you drove the boat up on a rock and it sank, and the adjuster finds Li batteries installed aboard, the underwriters would be completely within their right under marine insurance common law to refund your paid premiums and tell you you have never been insured. So sorry for the misunderstanding.



I have become convinced the REAL reason for insurance companies being so reluctant to cover Li installations--especially owner installed ones--is that many people making the switch have NO IDEA what they are doing and are in way over their head.



All you have to do is read some of the goofy ideas posted on this forum. People installing high amperage DC systems who don't know how to size wire, or calculate fusing, or how to make a proper crimp, etc, etc. Since moving to Li frequently involves a major rework of the boat's electrical system the underwriters just don't trust the average boat owner to do such things even close to right. Honestly, I have to agree with them. A FEW owners can do a fantastic job. Most can not.

You might be right. My insurance policy does not have the word lithium anywhere in it -- I've searched for it. So I wouldn't know. I suspect that you are correct in that if they specifically decline to cover any boat with any clearly stated criteria then that criteria would invalidate the coverage. I don't think there are any clauses of that nature in my policy -- not for lithium, not for dyneema standing rigging, not even for a blue paint job on the hull.

However, with a previous boat, I had survey findings that were very difficult to fix. Or at least not desirable. One that comes to mind was adding a crash bar in front of the stove. I talked with them about that, and they were very clear that if I chose not to install it, they would not cover any accident resulting from it. In 11 years on the boat, I never ran the stove underway, it really wasn't an issue.

I would suggest that anyone who has a policy with language of that nature consider shopping one of many other providers.

[sailorboy1]

Originally Posted by wholybee

It's amazing that an issue that has been beat to death dozens of times keeps coming up. If I didn't know better, I might suspect that some other industry with a lot to loose to battery power is planting misinformation and spreading fear.

You have "first adaptors" and "never changers" far as new tech goes. I was pretty much aganist lithium (no matter the type) till just recently because of the cost and the way forums made it sound so hard and like a science fair experiment. But now I have "cheap" LFP dropins and they seem fine so far.

But just like there are still threads here where you can tell people are posting based on reading a 30 year old book about boats, there still are going to be those reading "stories" of lithium. This thread started with a story about getting lithium batteries wet with seawater and no one really committed that getting acid batteries wet would be just as bad!

[Kettlewell]

Here's the thing. Electrical fires are one of the leading causes of boat accidents and claims. Some friends lost their boat due to an electrical fire. I've had a few minor wiring fires onboard. It is very easy to think all of your wiring, fusing, controls etc. are just perfect, and then something goes wrong as it often does onboard. One of my fires was when I was drilling a small hole to install something and I drilled through a settee panel into a battery cable behind it and the drill managed to create a dead short on the house batteries. Stupid, but stupid stuff happens. Another fire I had was when I had some minor engine work done by a yard and the mechanic somehow managed to pull down a positive wire that then shorted out when the engine manifold burned through the insulation before the fuse. Another time I was working on something else and managed to drop a large crescent wrench that caused a dead short in the battery compartment. Once when working in a boatyard there was a big explosion in the battery room where lots of wet cells were on charge. Something went wrong with the charge controller on a huge commercial unit and a large marine wet cell just exploded. My point being that stuff happens. Insurance companies are therefore very reluctant to approve anything electrical that isn't 100% tried, true and tested, and has various factory built-in safety stuff. And has a long track record. Insurers spend a lot of time, money, and effort to deny claims, so anything onboard that 100% doesn't meet the letter of your policy will be grounds to deny your claim.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by Kettlewell

Insurance companies are therefore very reluctant to approve anything electrical that isn't 100% tried, true and tested, and has various factory built-in safety stuff. And has a long track record. Insurers spend a lot of time, money, and effort to deny claims, so anything onboard that 100% doesn't meet the letter of your policy will be grounds to deny your claim.

So we hear this a lot. And I have no actual experience with a claim. But I have tried to read my policy -- and at least in theory the policy should be the legally binding document.

This doesn't just apply to lfp. Many people have replaced running light bulbs with LED bulbs and they become uncertified. Many people have done bleeding edge DIY replacement of standing rigging with dyneema. Contrary to published recommendations, many people have dyneema lifelines (we do). Many people have done things like directly connecting a bilge pump to a battery with nothing but a plastic blade fuse, in blatant violation of abyc standards. I have seen numerous instances of wire nuts used to secure junctions. Lfp is a mainstream technology, readily available at West Marine. I know many people who use portable propane heaters below decks. In short, virtually every boat out there has questionable or downright dangerous installations and practices.

So the question. And this is not a cynical or argumentative question. Insurance is really not necessary for a perfect mariner on a perfect boat where nothing is ever done wrong. Insurance almost universally covers accidents. Accidents are almost always preventable. Fix the failing item before it breaks, make it suitable for the job when it's put in, pay attention to everything around you, never make a mistake, and you won't need it. Is anyone actually aware of insurance claims being denied because work is not 100% in compliance with ABYC. Or has anyone seen an actual list published by an insurance company or included in the policy of specifically prohibited practices or equipment. This question is of course US specific.

[sailingharry]

Actually, as a follow-on. ABYC has a very clear standard that is relatively easy to comply with even for DIY. Is there any other instance where an installation in strict compliance with an ABYC standard is specifically listed as grounds for non-coverage? That is certainly a change, as the long held mantra is that ABYC is the gold standard for compliance and coverage by insurance.