Lithium Batteries (for the rest of us)

[vRUN]

Originally Posted by dlentz

Here we go again

Huh? THAT answer really seems helpful...

What do you want with the -popcorn-
is there data in your popcorn box
like those in my cereals pack

[dlentz]

Originally Posted by vRUN

Huh? THAT answer really seems helpful...

Try asking a specific question as it relates to this thread and you might find many here that have practical experience with these cells that could answer.

Something like, how often do you have to extinguish the fires? Or does 20C charging melt your 4/0 cables? You know real life stuff. Gotta go check for smoke now to see if my charging is done.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by dlentz

Try asking a specific question as it relates to this thread and you might find many here that have practical experience with these cells that could answer.

Something like, how often do you have to extinguish the fires? Or does 20C charging melt your 4/0 cables? You know real life stuff. Gotta go check for smoke now to see if my charging is done.

VRun is quite correct , nor is " personal experience " a substitute for good scientific data. There isn't a lot of good quality data at present on these cells

Dave

[dlentz]

Granted there is little "scientific data" on these cells as it relates to House Bank use, therefore I would submit that a lot of "personal experience" in this forum is as close as it gets at this time. There are some here that are doing a great deal of documentation on their use. If you want to continue with the FUD, feel free, I feel no obligation to supply "scientific data" in this forum, especially in this thread, see title, when there is plenty of it on the Net as it relates to the Cell Chemistry.
I am sorry but turning every thread into an EE's debate is not helpful to anyone.
If I can answer you on what I'm charging my bank at, or how I programed my charge sources, or how I achieve HVC or LVC, or how I cased my cells or monitor cell voltages, or balancing cell or,or Useful stuff like "(for the rest of us)" just ask, (but be warned my experiences are only "anecdotal" and there fore carry NO weight and by no means are an example of How to do it, only What I've done.)

Or would you like to know how long an internal short lasts in a 700 amp cell and what it looks like, been there too.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by dlentz

Granted there is little "scientific data" on these cells as it relates to House Bank use, therefore I would submit that a lot of "personal experience" in this forum is as close as it gets at this time. There are some here that are doing a great deal of documentation on their use. If you want to continue with the FUD, feel free, I feel no obligation to supply "scientific data" in this forum, especially in this thread, see title, when there is plenty of it on the Net as it relates to the Cell Chemistry.
I am sorry but turning every thread into an EE's debate is not helpful to anyone.
If I can answer you on what I'm charging my bank at, or how I programed my charge sources, or how I achieve HVC or LVC, or how I cased my cells or monitor cell voltages, or balancing cell or,or Useful stuff like "(for the rest of us)" just ask, (but be warned my experiences are only "anecdotal" and there fore carry NO weight and by no means are an example of How to do it, only What I've done.)

Or would you like to know how long an internal short lasts in a 700 amp cell and what it looks like, been there too.

I think there is a mis understanding about Li information. The lack of peer reviewed information doesn't mean the batteries are better or worse or the naysayers are wrong or the fan boys are right. We know clearly the basic parameters for successful use in a boat environment , even if we don't neccessarily have a handle on lifetime ( which is only really a function. Of value rather then anything else ).

I think the doubters are long since been banished by the base level performance.

Dave

[dlentz]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

We know clearly the basic parameters for successful use in a boat environment , even if we don't neccessarily have a handle on lifetime ( which is only really a function. Of value rather then anything else ).

I think the doubters are long since been banished by the base level performance.

Dave

Agreed, I think it is those basic parameters that most people on the forum are looking for without sifting though a lot of jargon and theory.
I am going to be your poster boy (for better or for worst) for minicycles and float charging. Plus please comment on EOL (end of life), Most of the papers/research and EV people call EOL at 80% of original C. I'd suggest when we're talking lifetime cycles (and I don't think it'll be meaningful for several years until we have real life examples) that in house bank use, a large bank at 80% would hardly be EOL.
Dwain

[hellosailor]

vRun, what works well in toys does not always scale up to elephant size very well.

[ardoin]

I just installed 1000Ah on the boat and disconnected the old Cruising Solutions Batt Monitor to adjust the efficiency pot... and it fell apart in my hands, the plastic part are over 20 yo. So now I'm looking for recommendations for a batt monitor that will provide Ah, in/out Amps and volts. Is the Linkpro are the Linklite good replacements?

[Lagoon4us]

Try BEP Monitors, we are using one on our 400 amp LiFeYPO4 bank it gives us all we need plus monitors two tanks and 2 other battery banks if needed.

[vRUN]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

vRun, what works well in toys does not always scale up to elephant size very well.

Agreed...
If you scale up a model that's not scaleable you are correct

Nevertheless don't we do it all the time


...and in addition I believe thats not quite the case here...

[vRUN]

Originally Posted by dlentz

I am sorry but turning every thread into an EE's debate is not helpful to anyone.

NOT GUILTY !

I asked a very practical question:
"Why do you use a prismatic LFE cell for your house battery?"
If jim says: "Got a good deal 30% off prismatics at walmart" so be it fine.
If john says: "My homemade cage will hold those prismatic cells nicely together (I hate to fiddle with small things.) " - useful answer.
If nerd says: "I've read that study by MIT and Delft University won all their races with them" - seems valid


Toys only?
Throughout Europe more than 2,000,000 Pedelecs (Pedal Electric Bikes) were sold in 2011 & 2012. All of them have a (house) battery.
"None" of them use prismatic cells (shape sure would be convenient).
Bicycles may be toys in the USA... sales in China this year are about 28 million ...
Them chinese make both: Bikes and Batteries
... and they expect a $11 Billion business in 2020 - why the heck are they not using prismatic LFEs? Yet?

NASA?
I did look up Development of a 10 Ah, Prismatic, Lithium-Ion Cell for NASA/GSFC : Stein, Brian
but -correct me- they used "prismatics" for "space" considerations (pun intended)
and isn't it "18 individual cells for 10Ah"




...and whoever noticed that I do like scientifc data: Forget that part (for now)!

[vRUN]

BTW: This is how a Panasonic "prismatic" (may) look inside
(and yes I've see the chinese pics posted by Maine(?))

[Maine Sail]

From where I sit it seems we, as in the boating community in general, don't even understand lead acid batteries yet a few of us are expected to know and have all the answers on LiFePO4?

I regularly see lead acid batteriess murdered with well under 200 cycles on them. I replace into the three figures each year of LA batteries and only a few of them ever broke 200 cycles.. Many don't even last past 100 cycles even when folks spend close to the money they would for LiFePO4 on AGM's...

Properly set up, used and charged LA batts do and can last a long time but there is a large portion of boaters that can't or don't care to do this.

I find it interesting that a huge portion of boaters can't even eek out 100-200 cycles on LA's yet the few of us currently using LiFePO4 are supposed to have all the answers, as in, now or yesterday....?

Why did we not demand the same data of AGM makers whey they first entered the marine market claiming 80% DOD and no sulfation..?? Both of which turned out to be a load of horse dung.

John Harries is a pretty good sailor, and has a good grasp of things, yet look at what it took him to fully understand how to get the best life out of his AGM batteries..

AGM Batteries - Morgan's Cloud

I went through similar exercises with AGM's when they first appeared on the scene and had to figure it out on my own. Course we were told back then it was okay to cycle to 80% DOD, they don't sulfate, and a host of other questionable claims by the manufacturers. Claims which left us out here in the field holding the bag....

I am closing in on 200 cycles and the vast majority have been to 80% DOD... So far so good. I make no claims about longevity just as no one can about LA. Each persons use, charging, temperatures, cycling and discharging will all be different. Each of these things can change how many cycles you get. I do suspect there are some early adopters who will get less cycle life than others, based on charging habits, but it will really be a wait and see.

I am sitting on-board right now with the Espar going, 12V fridge, stereo, cabin lights, LPG solenoid for coffee, cabin fans as well as the inverter to power this computer & charge some camera batteries. My GPS and helm are also on, cookie trail while anchored is always a good idea if someone drags into you. Due to limited vis the anchor light is also on, it is pea soup fog right now...

The battery voltage with all this running is still 13.24V..... That to me is the biggest benefit. My equipment loves it and things like my fridge compressor perform better and use less overall energy. At this same point, SOC wise, with the same size LA bank in Ah capacity, our "loaded" voltage would have been well under 12.0V.

[dlentz]

Originally Posted by vRUN

NOT GUILTY !

I asked a very practical question:
"Why do you use a prismatic LFE cell for your house battery?"I have 4 main current carrying connections on my pack as opposed to Hundreds. It's a boat in a marine enviroment, think reliability.
If jim says: "Got a good deal 30% off prismatics at walmart" so be it fine. I got a good deal at Balqon-$1800 for 700 ah.
If john says: "My homemade cage will hold those prismatic cells nicely together (I hate to fiddle with small things.) " - useful answer. I had ability to build a nice case.
If nerd says: "I've read that study by MIT and Delft University won all their races with them" - seems valid Again So?


Toys only?
Throughout Europe more than 2,000,000 Pedelecs (Pedal Electric Bikes) were sold in 2011 & 2012. All of them have a (house) battery. That's not "house" use to me.
"None" of them use prismatic cells (shape sure would be convenient). So? What's your point?
Bicycles may be toys in the USA... sales in China this year are about 28 million ...
Them chinese make both: Bikes and Batteries
... and they expect a $11 Billion business in 2020 - why the heck are they not using prismatic LFEs? Yet? How would we know? Maybe for their application/performance requirements they use the cells that worked for them.

NASA?
I did look up Development of a 10 Ah, Prismatic, Lithium-Ion Cell for NASA/GSFC : Stein, Brian
but -correct me- they used "prismatics" for "space" considerations (pun intended)
and isn't it "18 individual cells for 10Ah" There are many chemistries of Li ion cells, used for many different applications. Again is there a point here?




...and whoever noticed that I do like scientifc data: Specifically what data are you looking for? Forget that part (for now)!

It's probably me not you, but I don't get what you looking for. You throw out all of theses different cell chemistries and formats and just make statements about them. Is your point that they are better than something else or is it just a ? (I know I'm going to regret that!)
Dwain

[dlentz]

Originally Posted by ardoin

I just installed 1000Ah on the boat and disconnected the old Cruising Solutions Batt Monitor to adjust the efficiency pot... and it fell apart in my hands, the plastic part are over 20 yo. So now I'm looking for recommendations for a batt monitor that will provide Ah, in/out Amps and volts. Is the Linkpro are the Linklite good replacements?

Check out the unit they sell on EVTV.ME. (JLD 404 Intelligent AH Meter) It's cheaper than some of the others and looks like a more robust unit. Here's a video of it (very long) http://media3.ev-tv.me/news022412-1280.mov . Get the smallest shunt that will work for your application for the highest accuracy. Just an option to what we've been limited to in the "marine" field.
Plus it has some internal switching (relay) capabilities. If I hadn't just made a panel for mine I would have gone with this unit.
Dwain