Lithium fire protection

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@nfbr
Although the fire extinguisher in the first YouTube film initially knocked down the visible flame, I have no doubt that the laptop battery would very quickly reflash because of the exothermic reaction.

In Europe, part of the protocol for fires in electric vehicles is to place the entire vehicle in a construction skip box full of water.

Do you have a source for that protocol? It seems that by the time you got a car sized box to the scene of a fire and filled it with water the fire would be long gone. And how do you get it in the tank anyway without putting the driver of a giant forklift, that also has to be procured and arrive on scene, in danger? I must be missing something here, it seems the obvious course of action is to remove everyone to a safe distance and wait?

[nfbr]

Originally Posted by redneckrob

Do you have a source for that protocol? It seems that by the time you got a car sized box to the scene of a fire and filled it with water the fire would be long gone. And how do you get it in the tank anyway without putting the driver of a giant forklift, that also has to be procured and arrive on scene, in danger? I must be missing something here, it seems the obvious course of action is to remove everyone to a safe distance and wait?

There was a news article. Its not for primary putting out a fire. Its for stopping later re-ignition in large complex packs. Crashed cars tend to catch alight days or weeks later.

[mickt243]

Originally Posted by nfbr

Correct. Same as EPIRB. Not rechargeable.
Don’t confuse Lithium Metal (primary, not rechargeable) with Lithium Ion (secondary, rechargeable)

No, these were definitely rechargeable.

[redneckrob]

Originally Posted by nfbr

There was a news article. Its not for primary putting out a fire. Its for stopping later re-ignition in large complex packs. Crashed cars tend to catch alight days or weeks later.

So just for grins I looked that up. It appears you're talking about a BMW in Belgium which started smoking on the dealer floor (no crash) so the local fire department decided to dump it into a container of water. From the article..."What's not clear is whether this is the fire department's usual reaction to an electrified vehicle fire. Traveling with a crane and giant water tank doesn't seem very convenient. Plus, if the BMW were already in flames, picking it up and placing the coupe into container doesn't seem safe." (https://www.motor1.com/news/315476/b...e-netherlands/)

I would say that isn't a "protocol", which is a well thought out procedure that engineers with expertise in the subject come up with in advance. I'd call it a bunch of firemen pulling something out their behind in a rather dramatic over reaction. A more useful piece of information for this discussion comes from another section of the article that mentions that Tesla does have a guide for firefighters that involves 3,000 gallons of water applied directly to the battery if necessary. Of course the chemistry for Tesla car batteries is different than that used by most or all of us for house batteries, so one would want to consult the recommended procedures for the batteries you have, not some other random kind of batteries that exist elsewhere.

[john61ct]

http://store.evtv.me/proddetail.php?prod=firebane

[GordMay]

The Tesla battery pack has used modified Panasonic (18650 then bigger 2170) cells with nickel-cobalt-aluminum cathodes (LiNiCoAlO2, or NCA).
In April of this year (2019), Elon Musk promised Tesla would soon have a million-mile battery, more than double what drivers can expect today. Dalhousie University (the developers) has an exclusive licensing agreement with Tesla, suggesting this technology could appear in the company’s cars.
The battery described in the paper uses lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (NMC) for the battery’s cathode and artificial graphite for the anode. The electrolyte consists of lithium salt and other trace materials.
➥ A Wide Range of Testing Results on an Excellent Lithium-Ion Cell Chemistry to be used as Benchmarks for New Battery Technologies
➥ https://patentscope.wipo.int/search/...NATIONALBIBLIO

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by john61ct

EVTV Motor Verks Store: Lithium Fire Extinguisher 2.5 Gallon Class D, Lithium Battery Cells, firebane

Class D extinguishers are only suitable for METALIC Lithium battery fires.
This is a 2.5 gallon pressurized fire extinguisher. But instead of water, it is charged with Spectrum FX Firebane 1179 - an aqueous based class D extinguishing agent specially formulated for metal fires and curiously effective at extinguishing lithium battery fires.

[john61ct]

So Jack's selling a product that won't work?

Maybe based on the fact it will never be needed 8-)

[CharlieJ]

@redneckrob

I was sitting next to a major European lithium ion battery manufacture at a meeting this week when the news story you cited was brought up. He stated that it was so successful in preventing re-flash that it is becoming "protocol" in Europe.

Be that as it may, the point that I have been attempting to make is that copious amounts of water must be used to 1) stop the fire and 2) cool the battery so that re-flash will not recur. In my last large design and installation of propulsion lithium batteries (2 x 40kWhr), I made provision to enclose the batteries at at later date in a "bathtub", open at the top, to allow flooding of the batteries should a thermal runaway occur.

[Journeyman]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@redneckrob

I was sitting next to a major European lithium ion battery manufacture at a meeting this week when the news story you cited was brought up. He stated that it was so successful in preventing re-flash that it is becoming "protocol" in Europe.

Be that as it may, the point that I have been attempting to make is that copious amounts of water must be used to 1) stop the fire and 2) cool the battery so that re-flash will not recur. In my last large design and installation of propulsion lithium batteries (2 x 40kWhr), I made provision to enclose the batteries at at later date in a "bathtub", open at the top, to allow flooding of the batteries should a thermal runaway occur.

Charlie, what do you intend to make your bathtub out of so it holds water in the presence of intense fire? A metal batttery box is not a good idea I would think.

BTW do insurance companies have any position on Li batteries yet? They should have the only comprehensive anecdotal reports on the risk to date.

[CharlieJ]

@Journeyman

Charlie, what do you intend to make your bathtub out of so it holds water in the presence of intense fire? A metal batttery box is not a good idea I would think.

Series 5000 ¼" aluminum plate with a melting point of about 1000F. The thermal energy of the battery will be boiling and evaporating the water so the aluminum should not get close to its melting temperature.

BTW do insurance companies have any position on Li batteries yet? They should have the only comprehensive anecdotal reports on the risk to date.

Not to my knowledge.

[Nicholson58]

This is about the best data source I’ve found on this. No hocus-pocus, just facts.

https://marinehowto.com/lifepo4-batteries-on-boats/

Read and follow the links. LiFePo4 is pretty safe even shorted or flooded. (Or gun-shot). BMS is mandatory and preventing overcharging of any cell is critical to the cell life.

I learned enough here to convince me Firefly was better, less complex and compatible with our existing charge devices.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

BTW do insurance companies have any position on Li batteries yet? They should have the only comprehensive anecdotal reports on the risk to date.

For the Americas, the ABYC committee working to develop standards for LI battery installs would I think be a key player there.

I believe our own Maine Sail is involved with that.

[CharlieJ]

@john61ct #28
Significant progress has been made on Technical Information Report (TIR) TE-13, the precursor to an ABYC Standard.

For those interested, recommend contacting the Technical Director at ABYC and ask to be placed on the mailing list for the. The TD is Brian Goodwin; 410.990.4460 x115.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Class D extinguishers are only suitable for METALIC Lithium battery fires.

I wrote Jack, part of his response:

> The fire extinguisher has absolutely NOTHING to do with "lithium metal" in the battery. In thermal runaway, the cell cathodes release free oxygen and so no firefighting system based on oxygen suppression will do anything to a battery fire at all. This particular fire extinguisher uses a liquid that very quickly reduces temperature. That's how it kills fires.

_____
I'm not advocating for such a solution, but I do believe he would not sell an ineffective product. Of course the devil is in the details, e.g. bank size vs volume required.

Personally, I believe preventative measures are sufficient.