Lithium ion house battery bank disappointment

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by Anders

That's very expensive batteries. I would expect to pay around 120 pounds for my 135 Ah batteries, 4 of them would make 540Ah at a cost of 480 pounds, xe.com says that's USD686 OR AUD883.

to compare aple with apple, i found my batteries in UK:

https://hardware.eu/exide/nga5120120hs0ca.html

437 GBP ex wat a piece which seem even bit pricier than in AU.

Presume there are some quality differences to justify price difference.

As builder - Lagoon put them in the boat, I would be reluctant to put in different, unless I know the reason for difference and believe it is irrelevant.

[valhalla360]

Originally Posted by Journeyman

Valhalla,

Not sure what your point here is. Since my Li Ion option and my existing TPPL AGM installation both have the same energy density (see my original MasterVolt LFP comparison), how does Li Ion support higher demand any better?

Cheers,
Jman

Never said one was better or worse just that for a relatively small low demand system...there isn't much difference in the big picture no matter which one comes out ahead. What you describe isn't a big high demand electrical system...even though you state it is.

Where you can really start to justify lithium is when you get into big high demand systems. Weight and space savings can be significant and the greater discharge range makes up for a good chunk of the cost increase.

[200MPH]

Sold, here's our experience, which was precipitated by one of our existing agm batteries dropping a cell.

Swapped out 2x 260ah AGM batteries for a DIY installation lfp Winston battery, made of 4x300ah cells.

Saved lots of space. 150kg battery weight is now 40kg or so. Yes, it was not nice getting the two 75kg agm batteries off the yacht!

In Australia last year costs were:
2x 260ah quality (SSB brand) agm cost $1400
Our lfp cells cost $2265.

Made charge setting changes to our victron inverter/charger, plus wind and solar controllers. Added a victron battery lvd, which I would have done no matter what battery was installed.

So the simple maths to me says that LFP is better value.

Choose what you want to do. I choose to avoid running genset or diesels if I don't have to. That's the joy of sailing! LFP gives you more flexibility in that regard.

Let's face it, any battery can be looked after and have a good service life, or equally be mistreated and die young.

Your money, your choice. For us, LFP makes sense here and now.

[Colin A]

Originally Posted by Paul L

The Rolls AGM spec shows much higher cycle life
http://rollsbattery.com/wp-content/uploads/batteries/S12-230AGM.pdf

Interesting Life lines are also a bit higher I pulled Odyssey and Northstrar because the original poster mentioned TPPL.

http://rv-batteries.com/images/lifelinelifecycles.jpg

[TheThunderbird]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

This is a popular topic and we still can't agree on some facts:

Lead acid batteries are significantly less expensive than lithiums, around 5x or more when you factor in the charging system.

You can use (abuse) lead acid batteries with a similar usage profile to lithiums (i.e. discharge to 20%, only rarely charge to 100%). This is how golf carts use them and most industrial equipment. It is not good for the battery but if you factor in a more frequent replacement, lead acid still comes ahead by a factor of two or more.

Flooded batteries take abuse better than AGMs, and golf cart batteries especially can charge up to c/3 in bulk mode which is sufficient for most users.

So, what is the use case for lithiums? If you race and care about weight. Not a big issue for cruisers but I guess some people with cats may differ.

If you have an objection to battery abuse and prefer to baby the battery instead of making it serve you, then probably lithiums will give you a piece of mind.

If you need high discharge rates frequently (e.g. running an air conditioner off the batteries for hours on end, then recharging) or electric propulsion. Lithiums take this much better. But most people do not use batteries in this way. An occasional high current discharge (microwave, a couple of hours of AC, etc.) is possible with lead acid.

Lastly, if lithiums were so much better in total cost of ownership, boaters would have already switched. They haven't and this tells you something.

SV Pizzazz

KUDO!

this is the right approach, depending on circumstances and requirements, there is something more suitable. At times, a Jeep slides better than a Bentley.

Everyone must look at his-her own needs.

Me, liveaboard, 360cycles/yr, NEVER AGAIN with cheap AGM/GEL, nor ordinary $hitty FLA, l go for golf cart battery, Trojan 125+ (105 is basic!) or better DEKA, or ROLLS at the top.

UPS industrial solutions use 2V high quality FLA batteries, ask yourself why. (Good on a 20m trawler).

[TheThunderbird]

Maybe Australia is really a continent apart :-)

some reported battery prices for lead batteries look quite odd to me...sorry, it is common evidence that lithium cost 4-5X basic lead tech. Premium lead can see a lower ratio, say 3X ??

245Ah by Trojan comes for 320euro, say 360USD to me (dealer cost).

I love Trump keeping $ underpriced :-)

[arsenelupiga]

Originally Posted by TheThunderbird

Maybe Australia is really a continent apart :-)

some reported battery prices for lead batteries look quite odd to me...sorry, it is common evidence that lithium cost 4-5X basic lead tech. Premium lead can see a lower ratio, say 3X ??

245Ah by Trojan comes for 320euro, say 360USD to me (dealer cost).

I love Trump keeping $ underpriced :-)

there is another possibility - that trojan you quote are lesser quality to what we have in the boat.

i am not battery expert and dont want to become one, but replacing with 3x cheaper batteries, should at least be properly investigated so one knows what is buying into. I am guessing, these more expensive batteries are made safer, that is where cost difference comes in.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by arsenelupiga

there is another possibility - that trojan you quote are lesser quality to what we have in the boat.

i am not battery expert and dont want to become one, but replacing with 3x cheaper batteries, should at least be properly investigated so one knows what is buying into. I am guessing, these more expensive batteries are made safer, that is where cost difference comes in.

and that's how companies make money....buying out of fear that a lesser price is inferior

[hellosailor]

Journeyman, if you are really deep cycling AGM batteries i.e. to 20% SOC or below, and that is not just a falsehood generated by your instruments, then you are incredibly lucky to have seen 7 years from them. It is unheard of.

And that's the main reason lithium of whatever type are said to take up half the space of AGM. While lithium vendors argue and posture about how many thousand cycles to 1% SOC they can handle...numbers like 2000-3000 are typical, while AGM *makers* will never say anything near that. Ask them to guarantee 500 really deep cycles, and they'll suddenly have to go answer the phone.

For whatever the reason, what you are reporting is absolutely unheard of. So for you, what you've got is what you should stick with, until or unless you find there's been some major slip in the math, or in the instruments.

As to those who say "I can replace my lead batteries five times!" and such...Yeah, nice concept. Now please go back and take a look at how the prices of lead acid batteries have shot up in the past tan years. Doubled maybe? It is only getting worse, lead batteries can be expected to go up a good 50% every time you need to replace them. Unless you're the average Joe Boater, who burns through them in 2-3 years, so he doesn't see prices double quite as often.

[DotDun]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

Journeyman, if you are really deep cycling AGM batteries i.e. to 20% SOC or below, and that is not just a falsehood generated by your instruments, then you are incredibly lucky to have seen 7 years from them. It is unheard of.

And that's the main reason lithium of whatever type are said to take up half the space of AGM. While lithium vendors argue and posture about how many thousand cycles to 1% SOC they can handle...numbers like 2000-3000 are typical, while AGM *makers* will never say anything near that. Ask them to guarantee 500 really deep cycles, and they'll suddenly have to go answer the phone.

For whatever the reason, what you are reporting is absolutely unheard of. So for you, what you've got is what you should stick with, until or unless you find there's been some major slip in the math, or in the instruments.

As to those who say "I can replace my lead batteries five times!" and such...Yeah, nice concept. Now please go back and take a look at how the prices of lead acid batteries have shot up in the past tan years. Doubled maybe? It is only getting worse, lead batteries can be expected to go up a good 50% every time you need to replace them. Unless you're the average Joe Boater, who burns through them in 2-3 years, so he doesn't see prices double quite as often.

8 years ago paid $82/ea for T-105s, just paid $94/ea. Maybe your price increases are just your imagination? Your strawman of 50% price increases, can you provides links?

[hellosailor]

Strawman? No, I was comparing what I paid about six years ago for a flat plate AGM, to what I had paid 8 years previously for the same capacity & type battery. Could be that the T-105's being "commercial" batteries, not consumer items really, have been more rational and that you've got a good source for them. Note those specific years and rethink "strawman". Substitute "things change from year to year:

I think you know before you ask that none of us keeps records of commodity good pricing going back ten years. Try asking a battery maker what they've retailed for over the time. Lead prices, by the pound, were about 32 cents in ~2004 and $1.60 in ~2008, they've gone up an down and are about $1.30 now. So right now they are cheaper than they were ten years ago, but they're also 5x more than they were just 14 years ago. And the trend is going back UP again. Those spot prices are easily found online.

If you think they aren't shooting up...play the commodities market.

[svGenesis]

https://www.batteriesplus.com/replac...ry/trojan/t105

Obviously these are bottom quality but, Hard to argue the price.

Costco has a simular price batterie too.

[stormalong]

Originally Posted by hellosailor

As to those who say "I can replace my lead batteries five times!" and such...Yeah, nice concept. Now please go back and take a look at how the prices of lead acid batteries have shot up in the past tan years. Doubled maybe? It is only getting worse, lead batteries can be expected to go up a good 50% every time you need to replace them. Unless you're the average Joe Boater, who burns through them in 2-3 years, so he doesn't see prices double quite as often.

On the other hand the price of lithium batteries should drop significantly in the next few years as the battery technology and the manufacturing technology matures - by not being an early adopter we will save significant dollars.

Also, the last set of T-105s that I bought in 2010 cost more that the current advertised price. Not even adjusting for inflation.

[senormechanico]

Originally Posted by StuM

That is totally nonsensical. You clearly don't understand what any of your previously quoted specifications mean.

Coming back from three days in the boatyard with black Trinidad SR under my fingernails
I needed that comic relief !!
Thanks !

[daletournier]

As I mentioned earlier I see the advantages Lifepo and will probably go that way in the future, mainly due to charging efficiency.

I don't get the price argument just as others don't. Even in a place like the Seychelles which is along way from everywhere I was able to buy T105's for $160usd each. In two days I've installed 8 batteries, had cables made up, I've rewired and we are right to go. Cheap and simple.

As much as I agree that it's hard to argue against the advantages of lithium I also think it's hard to argue against the price, availability, ruggedness and simplicity of 6v trojans (or equivalent).

I take of to Madagascar in less than two weeks, I feel very confident about my tried, trued and rugged battery setup, if I had of just installed a lithium system (which I couldn't get here) Im not sure I'd be feeling quite as comfortable taking of so soon to remote places. And lithium batteries can and do fail, I've seen this happen, owner era or not, failure is failure.

I don't think it's a right or wrong thing, there's advantages to both, it's a personal decision based on one's circumstances.