Lithium ion house battery bank disappointment

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by fxykty

400 AH LiFePo with integrated BMS would be about 5000 USD.

All three solutions provide 320-350 AH of usable power.

Will I get 3-4x the cycles with LiFePo?

Space and weight not really issues as we’ve already got the existing AGMs in there.

Other considerations?

Yes I have to agree with Cruisingcat44.. I paid $2200usd for a 400AH (brand new CALB cells) delivered anywhere in the world. If you are interested I could send you the link.

Of course you need to add a BMS to that price, but a basic BMS runs about $500 these days with the contactors.

[missourisailor]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Firefly's marketing dept raised the **acceptable** float voltage up to 13.5V maximum, but 13.2V is still recommended for longevity,.

Unless they just released a new bulletin, the recommended Float voltage is 13.4v.

[CatNewBee]

my LFP bank - 1000Ah prismatic cells costs me 5000€ incl. VAT, plus 1000€ for all other stuff around like bms, solenoids, wiring, fuses, victron BMV712 etc.

A cheep 100AH AGM starts at 160€, would need 20 to get the same capacity. GEL are almost double the price, also AGM spiral cells...

LFP is the best solution for my project.

[contrail]

Of course, all of this is interesting information, particularly since boat electrical systems are an evolving technology. But why are people so invested in convincing everyone that their particular solution is the best....and maybe the best for everyone? The applications are so varied, and the sourcing and pricing are, as well.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by travellerw

Yes I have to agree with Cruisingcat44.. I paid $2200usd for a 400AH (brand new CALB cells) delivered anywhere in the world. If you are interested I could send you the link.



Of course you need to add a BMS to that price, but a basic BMS runs about $500 these days with the contactors.

Definitely interested in your source, and Cruisingcat44’s as well, as the NZ market is pretty small and at the end of a long supply chain. And do I necessarily want the cheapest off brand batteries assembled from the cheapest cells or is there a clear leader worth paying more for? Or do I just replace my house bank with 6V golf cart batteries until I’m not an early adopter?

The bigger problem is not the batteries but the expertise. As this and other threads show there is a host of different opinion about best practice installation and charging regimes for LiFePo. I’m not capable of interpreting the contradictory claims so then who do I trust to help me design and install my system?

Any recommendations for a marine electrician in upper New Zealand? I’ve used a couple different companies to date for our existing, inherited system and have not got much confidence in either of them. Alternatively someone like Enertec Marine comes recommended but their prices are as I quoted earlier - basically eye watering.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by fxykty

And do I necessarily want the cheapest off brand batteries assembled from the cheapest cells or is there a clear leader worth paying more for?

Definitely not.

Several quality vendors of bare cells, see here

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2610231

System vendors usually use those makers' bare cells.

> Or do I just replace my house bank with 6V golf cart batteries until I’m not an early adopter?

Certainly the easiest and lowest risk path.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by 200MPH

!

In Australia last year costs were:
2x 260ah quality (SSB brand) agm cost $1400
Our lfp cells cost $2265.

You can get quality AGMs for half that price.
We got ours from Bainbridge technologies in Brisbane - 220ah tbb's for $350 each with two year warranty.

[200MPH]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

You can get quality AGMs for half that price.
We got ours from Bainbridge technologies in Brisbane - 220ah tbb's for $350 each with two year warranty.

Maybe you can. My best options were $1200 for 2x 260Ah Remco with 1 year warranty from local battery wholesale shop, or $1400 for ssb with 3 yr warranty.

For the NZ enquiry, A$2900 will get you a 12V pack of 400Ah lfp Winston battery from evworks.com.au. we purchased 300Ah from them. Yes, you may need some knowledge to do it yourself, but it can be done. We did!

As an aside, just purchased a LFP starter battery for my race car, but that's because 8kg of weight saving for only about $100 extra makes sense to me. Completely different justification and use compared to a cruising yacht however!

[fxykty]

Thanks for the replies and information, definitely more sources to check out. Funny how the price that someone posts is not often the public price, makes it hard to compare, sigh.

In our case we have the typical PSOC for extended periods use pattern as we seldom have shore power and rely on around 700W of solar to top up the charge (using a generator to get to 86% or so before the amps start to tail off). The AGM bank that came with the boat is not tolerant of this, so I guess we’ve accelerated it’s gradual decline in capacity.

We’re not particularly desperate to reduce weight and not particularly wealthy, so the initial cost of Lithium is a real barrier. What about either Lead Crystal or Firefly? I know I can get LC batteries for near the price of name-brand AGMs in NZ but would have to ship Fireflies in. Is it true these are both reasonable ‘poor-man’s’ Lithium that would work in our PSOC world?

But regarding Lithium batteries, is one cell provider the same as any other cell provider? I mean, is there any point paying for a name-brand Lithium battery from say Mastervolt rather than building up an equivalent battery and BMS from no-name cells for half the price?

[travellerw]

Originally Posted by fxykty

But regarding Lithium batteries, is one cell provider the same as any other cell provider? I mean, is there any point paying for a name-brand Lithium battery from say Mastervolt rather than building up an equivalent battery and BMS from no-name cells for half the price?

I think there is definate value offered by the premium brands. They have done the research, built the system and failsafes and offer a gaurantee. We know at least 2 boats with a complete system from Victron and its a VERY nice system. Not completely plug and play, but still very good.

If you are going to DIY prismatic cells and a BMS, then you are in for a project. Sure, its WAY cheaper, but you have days of reading and researching ahead. There is always the chance you screw up and toast your new bank and are left with nothing.

As to Firefly.. I know 2 boats with them and although they perform well, both told me they were not worth the cost (over good quality AGM). However, those boats are down here with lots of solar and are able to get to back to %100 every couple of weeks. Good quality AGM would have been fine for them.

Now I'm a little confused as to how you cannot get back to %100 every so often. For us, we can easily get back to %100 if we do a generator run for 2 hours early in the morning. That essentially covers the "Bulk" portion of the charge and leaves the solar to complete the "Absorbtion" portion for most of the day. Our charger is a 60A version, so 2 hours of run time puts 120AH back into the bank. Maybe your charger is too small? What size if your charger?

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by fxykty

Funny how the price that someone posts is not often the public price, makes it hard to compare, sigh.

vary greatly by location, some people put lots of time and energy into seeking out deals.

In our case we have the typical PSOC for extended periods use pattern as we seldom have shore power and rely on around 700W of solar to top up the charge (using a generator to get to 86% or so before the amps start to tail off). The AGM bank that came with the boat is not tolerant of this, so I guess we’ve accelerated it’s gradual decline in capacity.

If you use the genny before the solar starts you should easily be getting to 100% within 5-6 hours on sunny days.

2-3 times per week at 100% should be fine


> What about either Lead Crystal or Firefly? I know I can get LC batteries for near the price of name-brand AGMs in NZ but would have to ship Fireflies in. Is it true these are both reasonable ‘poor-man’s’ Lithium that would work in our PSOC world?

My understanding is LC is a scam.

Fireflies are only worth it for unavoidable PSOC, and not at 2x the price IMO.

> But regarding Lithium batteries, is one cell provider the same as any other cell provider? I mean, is there any point paying for a name-brand Lithium battery from say Mastervolt rather than building up an equivalent battery and BMS from no-name cells for half the price?

The systems vendors make very healthy margins, a quality bare cell + DIY BMS is much cheaper but requires specialized knowledge and optimum config is not settled, still controversial.

[fxykty]

Originally Posted by travellerw

I think there is definate value offered by the premium brands. They have done the research, built the system and failsafes and offer a gaurantee. We know at least 2 boats with a complete system from Victron and its a VERY nice system. Not completely plug and play, but still very good.



If you are going to DIY prismatic cells and a BMS, then you are in for a project. Sure, its WAY cheaper, but you have days of reading and researching ahead. There is always the chance you screw up and toast your new bank and are left with nothing.



As to Firefly.. I know 2 boats with them and although they perform well, both told me they were not worth the cost (over good quality AGM). However, those boats are down here with lots of solar and are able to get to back to %100 every couple of weeks. Good quality AGM would have been fine for them.



Now I'm a little confused as to how you cannot get back to %100 every so often. For us, we can easily get back to %100 if we do a generator run for 2 hours early in the morning. That essentially covers the "Bulk" portion of the charge and leaves the solar to complete the "Absorbtion" portion for most of the day. Our charger is a 60A version, so 2 hours of run time puts 120AH back into the bank. Maybe your charger is too small? What size if your charger?

Our generator can pump out up to 80 amps, but only while SOC is under 80%, after that the amps drop quite quickly to about 15 by the time the SOC gets to high 80s. But we don’t want to run either engines nor generator any more than absolutely necessary, generally once every three or four days or so. The solar is enough to put about half our daily usage back.

[CatNewBee]

As for LC - I am sceptical too, too good to be true if you read the marketing stuff, also very inconsistent claims - however, there are happy adopter I know in the RV usage. Also they are used as UPS banks in the telecommunication and transportation industries so they have probably a long life expectance but not the energy density as a LFP.

I cannot judge various manufacturers, I heared about issues with all of them, but this is normal with technical systems.

I am only very familiar with the Winston LiFeYPO4 cells, they are widely used and available in Europe through 3 direct import companies. I know many successfull installs with very few issues, so I am very confident with my project.

The best thing on a DIY install is, you finally understand what you have done and why, and you are able to repair, monitor, maintain and adjust the system, so the battery will have a happy life afterwards. If you buy a turn key solution, you trust the installer, but have no clue what the battery is doing and if you abuse it permanently until she fails.

It is always better to understand your gear and can fix it at any location if necessary.

I would always prefer to install a DIY LFP over an undocumented Victron / Mastervolt etc. drop in solution.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

I am only very familiar with the Winston LiFeYPO4 cells, they are widely used and available in Europe through 3 direct import companies.

Besides ​Winston/Voltronix,

also CALB, GBS, A123 & Sinopoly are reputable bare-cell brands sold direct to end users.

Not sure about Lithionics, as they now sell packaged systems, along with

Victron, MasterVolt, and Redarc

[hikersailor]

Look at pbase.com (Mainsail) for an in depth discussion on lithiums from someone who is a knowledgeable profession marine electrician. End od discussion.