Marine light bulbs nomenclature

[Mickeyrouse]

Originally Posted by wholybee

You *REALLY* should order LED bulbs that are designed for navigation lights, which would mean the expensive ones from the major suppliers. (Dr. LED, Aqua Signal, Marinebeam)

There are 2 important issues. One is that cheap bulbs have cheap electronics which will interfere with VHF radios. In particular, even if you can't hear any interference, AIS reception might be wiped out or greatly reduced.

Second, the wavelength of light matters. LEDs are not full spectrum white. So, with a red or green lens, if the red or green component is not the correct wavelength of the filter the color will shift, or not be as bright.

Amen- learned the hard way.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

Amen- learned the hard way.

Again cost and electronic interference have largely nothing to do with it.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

Again cost and electronic interference have largely nothing to do with it.

There is often little connection between cost and quality. I give you that. But the issue of interference is quite common. Just because you don't have it or don't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is quite common for a boater to have provable interference between an LED navigation light and AIS reception.

The bulb I use isn't cheap. But it is visibly a very different bulb than the cheap ones, and doesn't cause interference for me when I have seen cheap bulbs cause interference. So, I am sticking with it.

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by wholybee

There is often little connection between cost and quality. I give you that. But the issue of interference is quite common. Just because you don't have it or don't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is quite common for a boater to have provable interference between an LED navigation light and AIS reception.

The bulb I use isn't cheap. But it is visibly a very different bulb than the cheap ones, and doesn't cause interference for me when I have seen cheap bulbs cause interference. So, I am sticking with it.

Out of curiosity, just where is the bulb you use actually manufactured, not sold but actually made?

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

Out of curiosity, just where is the bulb you use actually manufactured, not sold but actually made?

I don't know. I don't think the country of origin is particularly relevant to quality. That said, the claim is designed in Seattle, and used by US Navy and ASAF. Could be marketing BS, idk, that isn't why I purchased from them.

https://www.doctorled.com/store/about_us

[wholybee]

And the specific bulb, as you can tell from the picture is visibly different from generic LED bulbs that fit, noting the giant heatsink.

https://www.doctorled.com/store/nav-...r-Star-40-MKII

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wholybee

And the specific bulb, as you can tell from the picture is visibly different from generic LED bulbs that fit, noting the giant heatsink.

https://www.doctorled.com/store/nav-...r-Star-40-MKII

You’re picking a very specialised led there. Most common single colour leds from China will be fine in my experience

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

You’re picking a very specialised led there. Most common single colour leds from China will be fine in my experience

You are just a single example though. Others *have* had problems. Certainly, there are many common cheap lamps that will work on many boats. But not necessary all boats. And some might not work well on any boat.

And the color is definitely off with common bulbs. The red turns a bit towards magenta, and the green turns a bit cyan. And weird things happen when looking from dead ahead where the red and green mix a bit. I don't get any of that with my bulb, but I see it all the time on other boats.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wholybee

You are just a single example though. Others *have* had problems. Certainly, there are many common cheap lamps that will work on many boats. But not necessary all boats. And some might not work well on any boat.



And the color is definitely off with common bulbs. The red turns a bit towards magenta, and the green turns a bit cyan. And weird things happen when looking from dead ahead where the red and green mix a bit. I don't get any of that with my bulb, but I see it all the time on other boats.

I’m not extolling all cheap leds.

Equally I object to the knee next reaction common here when you mention Chinese products , there are lots of good Chinese LED cheap leds entirely suitable. Sure it’s not 100%. But blanket advice to spend 4-6x etc is equally wrong.

In my opinion if you use colour leds you need clear filters. I also find “ warm white “ gives better results with filters.

Ive not noticed the colour shifts you mention with warm white. I also find using colour led better then then white if you can’t change the filter

[CharlieJ]

Before becoming too cavalier about navigation lights and their characteristics; here is the quote from CG 169 regarding nav lights:

7|13. Color specification of lights. Return to the top of the page
(a) The chromaticity of all navigation lights shall conform to the following standards, which lie within the boundaries of the area of the diagram specified for each color by the International Commission on Illumination (CIE).‹, in the “Colors of Light Signals”, which is incorporated by reference. It is Publication CIE No. 2.2. (TC-1.6), 1975, and is available from the Illumination Engineering Society, 345 East 47th Street, New York, NY 10017 and is available for inspection at the Coast Guard, Shore Infrastructure Logistics Center, Aids to Navigation and Marine Environmental Response Product Line (CG-SILC-ATON/MER), 2703 Martin Luther King, Jr. Ave SE, Mailstop 7714, Washington, DC 20593-7714. It is also available for inspection at the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA). For information on the availability of this material at NARA, call 202-741-6030, or go to: http://www.archives.gov/federal_regi...locations.html. This incorporation by reference was approved by the Director of the Federal Register.›

(b) The boundaries of the area for each color are given by indicating the corner co-ordinates, which are as follows:

(i) White:
x 0.525 0.525 0.452 0.310 0.310 0.443
y 0.382 0.440 0.440 0.348 0.283 0.382

(ii) Green:
x 0.028 0.009 0.300 0.203
y 0.385 0.723 0.511 0.356

(iii) Red:
x 0.680 0.660 0.735 0.721
y 0.320 0.320 0.265 0.259

(iv) Yellow:
x 0.612 0.618 0.575 0.575
y 0.382 0.382 0.425 0.406

8|14 . Intensity of lights. Return to the top of the page
(a) The minimum luminous intensity of lights shall be calculated by using the formula:

I = 3.43 x 106 x T x D2 x K-D
where:

I is luminous intensity in candelas under service conditions,
T is threshold factor 2 x 10-7 lux,
D is range of visibility (luminous range) of the light in nautical miles,
K is atmospheric transmissivity. For prescribed lights the value of K shall be 0.8, corresponding to a meteorological visibility of approximately 13 nautical miles.

(b) A selection of figures derived from the formula is given in the following table:

Range of visibility (luminous range) of
light in nautical miles D
Minimum luminous intensity of
light in candelas for K = 0.8 I

1 0.9
2 4.3
3 12
4 27
5 52
6 94

‹ Note: The maximum luminous intensity of navigation lights should be limited to avoid undue glare. This shall not be achieved by a variable control of the luminous intensity. ›

And, yes, if there is an accident during reduced visibility, you can bet that the investigation, lawyers and insurance experts will include determining whether the nav lights involved meet these requirements.

[Spot]

Thanks Charlie

CIE Color System

Link to many charts and graphs

I like the 1976 chart (from above website) as it has the line that shows the approximate K for white down the middle. Incandescent fixtures would have been tested with bulbs something like 2895 K, pretty 'yellow' to compared to modern 'daylight' LED's. The comment made upthread about warm LED's to replace incandescent bulbs makes sense to me in trying to get/keep a similar result.

And to think that this used to be done with lamps and wicks...

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wholybee

There is often little connection between cost and quality. I give you that. But the issue of interference is quite common. Just because you don't have it or don't understand it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist. It is quite common for a boater to have provable interference between an LED navigation light and AIS reception.



The bulb I use isn't cheap. But it is visibly a very different bulb than the cheap ones, and doesn't cause interference for me when I have seen cheap bulbs cause interference. So, I am sticking with it.

In fully understand and even have a set of Near field scope probes

With modern leds using switching in MHz you rarely get interference these days. Too little switching energy , and easily shielded.

[wholybee]

Originally Posted by goboatingnow

In fully understand and even have a set of Near field scope probes

With modern leds using switching in MHz you rarely get interference these days. Too little switching energy , and easily shielded.

It isn't shielding you need it is filtering. With the power to the LED running parallel and adjacent (often direct contact) to the coax for the VHF and that coax often poor quality with poor shielding. Switching in the driver for the LED shows up as RF on the power line.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by wholybee

It isn't shielding you need it is filtering. With the power to the LED running parallel and adjacent (often direct contact) to the coax for the VHF and that coax often poor quality with poor shielding. Switching in the driver for the LED shows up as RF on the power line.

Whatever it is. Ive not found much issue in recent years.

[goboatingnow]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

Before becoming too cavalier about navigation lights and their characteristics; here is the quote from CG 169 regarding nav lights:


And, yes, if there is an accident during reduced visibility, you can bet that the investigation, lawyers and insurance experts will include determining whether the nav lights involved meet these requirements.

Yah lawyers bogey man who cares. Unlikely if the yacht is 309 metres down