Most sustainable electrical setup

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by pallantejm

We would like to optimize our electronics usage to ensure battery power to:

- 2 laptops
- 2 phones
- Mast lights
- Anchor winch
- Electric bilge pump
- Thru-hull depth sounder/transducer
+ 3Ah for a fridge.

Do not have solar panels (what would the recommended wattage be?)

How much extra space do you have for more batteries? depending on the modifications you are willing to make that might be the deciding factor on battery choice. For example we would use the Trojan golf cart T105s in a flash but it's a UK boat and the batteries are too tall to fit under the bunks unfortunately and I am not altering that.

On a 34ft yacht with low power needs you ought to be able to get 300w - 400w of solar probably on the stern, more the better. Someone mentioned 1000w of solar, but I don't think that is at all realistic for the size of boat.

Until last month when a semi flexible 30w panel failed we managed from Spring to Autumn on 180w of solar with similar set up as you plus tv. Now we have a freezer we are going to swop out the 150w panel on the arch for 300w. This will hopefully provide all our needs until we hit several days of rain and heavy cloud in succession. Then we will need a top up with the engine or shore power, which for us is acceptable. We also have a 110w folding panel which can be deployed in harbour or at anchor. Since its loose I move it around the deck several times a day when deployed which helps enormously. The jury is still out on how long it will last though. Flexible panels just don't seem to last long and we probably won't buy any more.

However, during a UK winter, no chance of solar doing much other than keeping the batteries topped up.

This is an interesting thread to give you some ideas of solar installations:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ts-179638.html

[warrior 90]

Don Brooke Yacht 34'
early 80s?) Lister Petter engine, 12 V
12V Starter battery for the engine
130 A/H Deep Cycle battery for house bank

Up Grade requirements
Fridge, Freezer

electronics usage to ensure battery power to:
- 2 laptops
- 2 phones
- Mast lights
- Anchor winch
- Electric bilge pump
- Thru-hull depth sounder/transducer
what the best / most affordable options would be for our electrical setup.


Here we go

Cheapest is Solar & Set It > Forget It:
1-2 units 100 to 200 watt Panels (what best fits the boat) mounted to each side of the hull to the life lines/ stanchions. Like was mentioned already the flexible solar panels don´t last. When calculating solar ALWAYS use price of watts installed on Your boat. Solar arches are practical for small boats but they can get can get also very heavy and expensive( cost more then solar panels) because usually they are bolted as a permanent installation and therefore need to have sufficient strength for all weather conditions.
Solar panels mounted to the life lines /stations are semi portable and can be taken down when the going gets rough. That would come out to the solar capacity on one side of the boat only because in REALITY many times the other side is shaded. Use the best panels in terms of efficiency Your money can buy
1 panel 150 W @ average 6 hours sun light per day = 900 W/day
Yeah, the ones from Cowpoos don´t look bad for the job but there is no info on efficiency
https://equipurself.co.nz/collection...gy-mono-panels
You should look at least for 18-19%... 21-22% is top

A Victron Mppt solar charge controller will be most likely Your best choice because of smaller and best quality but also the EP / Eversolar Mppt solar charge controller will do a good job. You get what You pay for. With electronic You want good service....can´t fix it Yourself

And of course a Battery Monitor. Well, here I would only buy the best VICTRON BMV

For engine starter battery use the same

For house bank up grade from 130 amp to 400 amp. Golf Cart batteries will be Your best and cheapest choice. They can take a discharge down to 50% and still have a decent longevity / life cycles. Best 4 x 12 V 100 amp. Don´t forget they are heavy.

Fridge/Freezer: Best choice, most efficient and versatile, easy install and maintain/Clean
Portable Top Loader box style sliding in and out of a drawer/ compartment or just top mounted wherever most practical. Only requirement for proper functioning is good air flow to the compressor ports to remove the heat and cooling.
Also saves the most space because if You have a door style You can´t put anything in the way of the door. Here is a good example but there are also lot´s of other good brands. Don´t be too cheep and think about service and spare parts and how easy to come by

Look at this 70 L beast @ 31 KG weight and how practical.... deep freezing down to –22 °C but it can also operate on solar power. Two separate compartments, can be cooled independently to the temperature of your choice, allowing simultaneous cooling and freezing, detachable carry handles. Heavy-duty details like reinforced corners, stainless steel hinges and a robust lid lining. Many boaters add something like that to add on to there food storage capacity.

Yes, everything on boats sooner or later will break.
What do You think is easier and cheaper to repair?

A permanent installed unit that You need most likely a marine specialist coming to Your boat ?
Or a ride to shore with Your dinghy and finding somebody who can fix it ?

https://www.dometic.com/en/se/produc...75dzw-_-139574

Off course that comes with an energy penalty

(AC) 100-240 V - Rated input current (AC) 0.93 A - Rated input power (AC) 70 W
DC) 12/24 V - Rated input current (DC) 7.9 A - Rated input power (DC) 70 W
Energy consumption (DC @ 5/32°C)> 1.309 kWh/24h from start+5ºC empty>full-22ºC

Yes that is at MAX outside 32ºC and Freezer -22ºC but with ECO -7ºC is lot less


You wanna go half the size 38 L capacity, only one compartment @ 18,5 KG weight, but
still suitable for deep freezing down to –22 °C

https://www.dometic.com/en/se/produc...fx-40w-_-64079

(AC) 100-240 V - Rated input current (AC) 0.86 A - Rated input power (AC)
45 W
DC) 12/24 V - Rated input current (DC) 7 A - Rated input power (DC) 44 W
Energy consumption (DC@5/32°C)> 0.665 kWh/24h from start+5ºC empty>full-22ºC

So let´s do a quick calculation Batteries 400 amp@50% = 2400 W storage
70 Liter Fridge Freezer Beast @ MAX -22 ºC = 1310 W 24hours=54W/hour

1 solar @ panel 150 W other side is shaded x 6 hours = 900 W charging capacity

Result: This fridge will eat aprox 410 W of Your 2400 W battery everyday after the 900 W of solar charging. So where does the energy come from ? You also have other energy consumers on board ?
Well, one part or all could come from the alternator of Your Lister Petter engine........
B U T for having a second SAFETY BATTERY CHARGING BACK UP and an VERY ELEGANT and CHEAP solution use a Portable Honda 2200 Generator to top of Your battery every 2 -3 days in the morning. Yes, I say elegant because now You not only have always extra 70 -80 amps battery charging capacity... B U T You also have AC 120 V with Max 2,2 Kw that allows You to have all kinds of cool appliance, and options ETC. dehumidifier, 12.000 BTU air condition with soft starter, inductions cook top with 1 burner, electric water heating, I guess by now You get the idear.... PAGE 76

>>> http://cdn.powerequipment.honda.com/...X31Z446010.pdf

Now to make this more efficient it is important to know that the last 5-10% charging of Your Battery are the most inefficient and will take more run time of Your generator. So for the best performance it´s best to charge Your battery to 80% in the morning and solar will do the rest much better.

Now to watch and control this whole process we could add on all kinds of fancy expensive devices that measures exactly how long the Honda generator has to run but there is a much cheaper and simpler way that will always function very well

Honda EU2200i Portable generator features a runtime of 3.2 to 8.1 hours on only .95 gallon of fuel. It has a maximum output of 120 volts/2200 watts/18.3 Amps.
Yes, the Honda also has an ECO mode where it produces less but is much quieter and then it runs 8,1 hours on o,95 gal/aprox 3,6 L of Gasoline fuel. So if You only fill the tank with 1/4/0,8L the Honda will have no fuel after 50 minutes at MAX or after about 2 hours at ECO Mode. Now it happens so that it is also the best when You empty the carburetor after use of the GEN. So now You don´t even have to watch.... just put the aprox amount of fuel in the tank and the GEN will shut down at Your desired time.

Now if You also wanna use AC 120 V without the noise of the Honda generator You need to install an inverter and best is one that already comes with a battery charger. That is less space and no complicated wires. A Combi Inverter/Charger with 2000 W will do a pretty good job. The only thing You MUST watch is You need a PURE SINE WAVE inverter for power quality because of Your communication devices. Now what Cowpoos posted as an inverter is a solar charge controller and not a Combi Inverter/Charger that You need. Here again I would definitely recommend the Victron because of quality and service even so it´s a bigger bite that You may feel in Your pocket but if You wanna squeeze You might be able to do it for half price.

Leaves the issue with Your communication devices. Well, here I have a little more sophisticated idea. First of course is to CHARGE Your communication devices.

Well, in this set up there is Your DC 12 V on the boat, there is also DC 12 V on the Honda GEN, there is even a DC 12 V USB plug on the DOMETIC Freezer beast with a practical table to charge all Your devices and again You can plug in everywhere to AC 120 V because You have an inverter and when Your generator is running. I hope that will take care of Your communications.

But now comes a little more fancy idea to get more safety of power on Your boat with adding on an independent power supply that will work isolated without all the power on board and add extended battery capacity to Your PC and Phone with an awesome and cheap solution......

https://www.audew.com/Audew-20000mAh...-p-100058.html

Yeah, this thing is a REAL BEAST. It´s not only an awesome power supply to extend the battery of Your PC and Phone.... EVERYWHERE !

It can also start Your Lister Petter for less then 100 $ in case of emergency and when nobody is around.
Here watch the beast in action in a test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JN8A2nIMUWA

But that´s not all.

So now when You have tried all but things did not go well,
and there is no juice in the wires and the AUDEW and You feel like in HELL
The Beast will be like an Angel and hopefully ring Your Bell
Armed with Your little ANGEL and a bottle of WINE
You might be able to invite Yourself if You are polite
to another boat that is also on anchor close by for DINNER.
And when Your neighbor smiles and tells You that´s FINE,
stick Your little Angel in Your pocket and enjoy a few glasses of wine
And after a few jokes and laughing about hell ?
When Your sweet Angel is charged and happy
You go back to Your boat and feel like a WINNER

&

Well, usually when You take Your sweet Angel to shore,
watch Your step because it always costs more
but in this case it´s cheap and will make You feel BETTER
While having some coffee and do some shopping
Your Big Girl might want to argue about the good old lady, the dearest Mrs.Lister PETTER
This is the moment to talk more about Island hopping
HELL ? please NO More, and You watch with impatience till Your Angel is READY
because You know when You are back on the boat the story is over and she will BEND
Back on the boat... OMG Mrs Lister Petter is be back a life, breathing deep and STEADY
And... all the GIRLS smile because after all the story has a HAPPY END


However there are still a few loose ends and now comes the big question

Do You enjoy creature comfort on board ?

Well, Honda Genni is a little noisy when doing what she does best.

PRICE TAGS? ....Can´t give You New Zealand, but let´s say the big ticket items are Honda GEN 1000-1200US$, Victron Inverter/Charger combi 2000 W > 1000-1500US, Victron Mppt solar charge controller + BMV battery monitor > 500 US, Solar panels 150 W@ 100-150 US per item, 70 L Dometic CoolFreeze CFX 75DZW >900 -1500 US, Miscel > 500 US, batteries don´t know,.... all depends when You buy= Discounts, where You buy= shipping cost.... and with Honda, Victron, Dometic you can get very lucky when You call direct...sometimes units with only damage on box from transport= huge discount

Sustainable ?.... well, that all depends on how much You are willing to spend but this pack is VERY COSY, very +Budget Friendly, Quality Components, +Super FAST and comes +++ FREE of Problems with Surveyor... Generator and Fridge are PORTABLE

Or do You prefer the frugal the adventures ?
Because then You might also get away VERY CHEAP

* A new Starter Battery
* New batteries for the house bank maybe a little bigger
* A serious chat with Mrs Lister Petter to get her in shape because the alternator of Your engine is Your main charging source

Now the boat is back in business

The fridge ? Propane ?
Well with the cooking there are still some points for propane but the Fridge/Freezer ?
The less You use propane the less complicated it gets because of the requirements for SAFE installation... and not to forget the nasty heavy propane bottles and the hassle running around. Hell, with the Portable Top Loader freezer box You only need a primitive cigarette lighter plug ?

Well, whatever, get a good fridge. Loosing food is no fun. There are no stores on the ocean= 500-1000 US$
Here look NEW with damaged box and with little scratch on the bottom where nobody will see at least another 10-20% but still full warranty

https://werksverkauf.dometic.de/prod...eze-cfx-75dzw/

Your COMMUNICATION DEVICES 2 x PC and 2 x Phone

Well, I guess You have seen the BEAST in the EYES of the ANGEL
Current: 2000A Capacity: 20000mAh
@ Size: 8.7*3.5*1.1 inches
@ Weight: 1.3 lbs
@ 90 US$ - 10% discount+ FREE Shipping+ Free Bag

With 1 of those for each set of 1 PC and 1 Phone X 2 = 200US$
New batteries and Mrs. Lister Petter in a good mood ?
Now You are all set and the world looks different...... how much does it cost ?

Then You fill up the tank and go sailing for a while, Island hopping in the neighborhood.
You have time for some Deep meditation about Sustainability
and when You come back You know exactly what You want and what You need



BTW, in regards Your boat, a Don Brooke Yacht 34'. Before I started writing I was checking the web and that was quiet an interesting story

https://www.superyachttimes.com/yach...-international

And there is a 34 model and the smallest one I could find is 23,77 meters long.
https://www.boatinternational.com/pr...-brooke--17725

So now I am asking myself if You are talking about an UP GRADE on the DINGHY ?
Hahaha, because then the situation might get a little more complicated

[alansmith]

Warrior 90, Dog, I think you set some kind of record. I have to say you must work for some info commercial. I agree with most of your logic.

Now ... if only Apple will fulfill the leak that their phones will have satellite access and break free from carriers.

[Mr O]

As others have mentioned, forget the 3 way fridge. Consider cold plate or portable Engle type fridge/freezer. Lifepo4 might be a good option for you, along with a high output alternator, solar, inverter and a suitcase generator as backup. The macerator head takes a hit from the batteries and if its an old system, take it out and install a compost toilet. I’ve had one for about a year and it works fine for us. No pumpouts, no joker valve failures, no stinking hoses or holding tank.

[MJH]

Originally Posted by MJH

Your asking a lot of very basic questions. I'll do my best to answer.

DON'T use the propane refrigerator...it is problematic and dangerous on sailboats due to heeling affect.

You need a comprehensive electrical system designed to the battery chemistry of your choice (flooded, AGM, GEL, others); all battery chemistry must be the same. I won't get into chemistry choice as that is a forum unto itself but take note of the require maintenance to maintain each of them, advantages, and disadvantages. However, just buying the batteries is not an end in itself. House battery size is dependent on your total use and recharging sources; start by completing a daily energy audit, each device amperage times hours totaled for the day. Your diesel alternator should be at least 25% of total battery amperage. A battery monitor with temperature inputs are a plus to extended battery life...don't forget the maintenance.

Extra energy generating sources are a plus: solar and wind to start. Good solar panels are quiet and maintenance free but locating them on a monohull is a challenge; put on as many watts as your boat will support. Wind generator may be good if you will be anchoring for some time in cloudy climate.

I am not fond of the composting toilet IDEA but have no experience with it either.

The initial total cost outlay for all above will be substantial but if done correctly will last a long time. If funds are limited, don't go on the cheap but rather complete a progressive plan in logical phases when funds are available. Therefore, start with choosing battery chemistry and initial start battery, battery monitor, with temperature inputs...don't forget the maintenance. Take the time to Reseach carefully each step and shop around for the best prices.

Good Luck.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

To supplement my previous comments above, an advantage of competing an energy consumption audit is to identify your largest users and appreciate how much they impact your electrical production needs.

With what you have posted your refrigeration and electrical anchor winch will be the biggest users; the electrical anchor winch a large but short time requirement at each location and the refrigeration an ongoing dilemma. One option is to delay the refrigeration and experience living without it while judging your power usage. You may determine that doing without it is a small price to pay to get on the water and the cruise underway. Many/most cruisers, on boats your size and smaller, live without refrigeration and bypass the cost and maintenance issues but only you can make that determination; I learned to live without it on my previous 28' boat and now don't actively use it on my present larger 42'...you can live very comfortably with some planning. One last thought is that much of the refrigeration dilemma is the fact that most if not all refrigeration boxes are very poorly insulated and that drives up the need for more power...look into yours before undertaking that large expense. Upgrading the refrigeration/freezer box insulation can be a big job but every design is different.

~ ~ _/) ~ ~ MJH

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by alansmith

Warrior 90, Dog, I think you set some kind of record. I have to say you must work for some info commercial. I agree with most of your logic.

Now ... if only Apple will fulfill the leak that their phones will have satellite access and break free from carriers.

Hi Condor, how are the wings.
You sound like You have seen the Beast in the Eyes of the Angel
Can You feel the driving power in the sails ?
Just imagine You wanna go exploring shallow waters for a day where You usually can´t get in because of too much draft.. You take a few of those along in a pack @ 1,3 Lbs a piece

Hahaha Yes, sometimes I bite
BUT I am a GOOD DOG ))) Hahaha, I only bite the BAD ONES
Yeah, sometimes I work a little as long as it´s fun but I am not married. They couldn´t possibly pay me enough.
Yes, You are right, that will cost a lot of apples and I doubt that will ever happen.

[bstronger]

Install enuf solar charging to leave your boat at anchor and
Support your food freezer. It will pay for itself over time in
Extended battery lives.

[Captain Anthony]

IMHO, start with a schematic of your ENTIRE electrical system. Once you have an understanding of what you have, whats good and what you are up against, you can plan accordingly. Remember to use the correct gauge wire. do not be penny wise and burnt boat foolish.

[vic008]

For alternator regulation in NZ Graeme Polley (smart reg zm4) is the man. Good price.In Hamilton

[WaterLilyCat]

I have a 1980 catamaran and it was built with a gas/AC fridge. It still works really well after 40 years. The flame is small and is exhausted into the saloon area. I installed installed a gas monitor to check for high levels of CO and never registered any significant levels. It does struggle a bit on very hot days. However would not recommend for a monohull due to limitations of space and ventilation.
Also installed a 12 compressor refrigeration unit to replace the engine operated ecuetec as we don't want to run the engine every day. They are small volume, easy to install and efficient. It takes about 30 ah overnight which is easily replaced with the solar charger during the day. Also have a 2kw Honda generator as a backup power supply but have not needed to use it in the past 6 months while cruising up the Australian East Coast. The best strategy with boat power is to keep well away from power hungry applications. Cooking and heating are much easier to manage with propane and the risks are miniscule if properly installed.

[Bunji]

Originally Posted by pallantejm

My partner and I were wondering what the best / most affordable options would be for our electrical setup.

We would like to optimize our electronics usage to ensure battery power to:

- 2 laptops
- 2 phones
- Mast lights
- Anchor winch
- Electric bilge pump
- Thru-hull depth sounder/transducer

We plan on getting a 3-way fridge but would mainly rely on propane. The oven and stove would also rely on propane.

Cabin lights would be portable LEDs.

Previous owner installed a macerating toilet w/electric flush but considering switching over to compost toilet instead.

Currently have 12V Starter battery for the engine and the 130 A/H Deep Cycle battery is dead (will need to replace). Due to the dead battery all electrical systems on the boat do not work (besides the starter).

Do not have solar panels (what would the recommended wattage be?)

What would the ideal electrical setup be for the above requirements and would anyone have a ballpark figure as to how much it would cost to install?

Gday 1 x 300 amp/hr relion lithium battery. 2 x 290 watt earche solar panels and victron solar controller and your choice of 12 volt fridge $6000

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Bunji

Gday 1 x 300 amp/hr relion lithium battery. 2 x 290 watt earche solar panels and victron solar controller and your choice of 12 volt fridge $6000

You must be joking

3663 $ for the 300 Amp Relions battery alone

https://relionbattery.com/products/lithium/rb300-hp

[Bunji]

Sustainable/Affordable and return on investment equals lithium batteries, system, cycle life, maintenance free and all the other advantages lithium offers (warranty) equals best long term bang for your buck. Relion are the best drop in option in this part of the world (AUS/NZ) if ops were in the USA I would say battle born or firefly(carbon foam) relions are also very popular in the US. They (lithium) are also becoming much more affordable and will continue to do so cheers

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by Bunji

Sustainable/Affordable and return on investment equals lithium batteries, system, cycle life, maintenance free and all the other advantages lithium offers (warranty) equals best long term bang for your buck. Relion are the best drop in option in this part of the world (AUS/NZ) if ops were in the USA I would say battle born or firefly(carbon foam) relions are also very popular in the US. They (lithium) are also becoming much more affordable and will continue to do so cheers

I beg to differ. Lithium has advantages for sure but it is more expensive. We had a long thread a year ago, I remember a number approx. 7x more expensive for lithium vs. golf cart batteries. Some people claim a lower number. Golf cart batteries are cheap $1/AHr, easy to use, easy to monitor and charge and if used in the bulk charge region, give comparable performance to lithium (ie efficient charging and discharging in the 20-80% state of charge range). If you abuse your batteries, they will last 400-500 cycles or two years if used every day, otherwise much longer. When you are ready to replace, just plunk $400 and you have a decent size fresh bank.

[Disailor]

Very happy with my Engle fridge/freezer. Unique "compressor" uses 40% less power that a conventional rotary type. I have 260w(80 semi-flex & 180rigid) solar running thru an MPPT controller. Temp control runs 0 to 5. On "2" interior temp is 34F. On "5" it'l make ice (tho it takes a while). I turn it down to "1.75" at night & by 9AM on a sunny day batteries are full.
Cooler was $800, solar was about $300. DIY installation.