NEW Dimension - LTO Battery from GWL Power

[warrior 90]

[QUOTE= The DIY EV forums is where the more knowledgeable hobbyists hang out.
I am not at all saying don't experiment, reverse engineer the packaged systems you say are in wide use (links please?), cobble your own DIY systems together out in the back shed.Go for it, when you think you've grokked it all let us know, maybe even install on your boat once you think it's ready for prime time.

> Do You always implicate others when You are trying to make Your point ?

[QUOTE= However, most members here are still learning / figuring out optimal usage of the various **lead** chemistries.

> And how did You learn ?

[QUOTE= LFP is the **only** non-lead chemistry I've seen recommended for mobile House energy storage, by people I've learned to trust.

> Yeah " recommended for mobile House energy storage"... and we are talking about boats.
Why don´t we analyse the data first and then we give our opinions ?

[QUOTE= Until then I personally default to skeptical.

> I agree

[QUOTE= LFP is the **only** non-lead chemistry I've seen recommended for mobile House energy storage, by people I've learned to trust.

> Well, that´s Your opinion. Maybe now it´s a good moment to open the door and go outside the house.

[QUOTE= I have never seen any of their products, nor discussed them with anyone who owns one, so afaic they have no reputation in mobile House energy storage.

> When You type GWL battery in Google You come to EV-Power and their ref page is here......
[url]https://www.google.com/maps/d/u/1/embed?mid=1-Jd5TBA3OUIl1yRCY4pIW5KCT7M&ll=44.778730777912614%2 C-12.73359961250003&z=2[/url]

The same Yinlong batteries are used by.....
https://www.avmfg.com/batteries/

Yinlong is a monster.
LTO material is the high-tech material which was absent in battery industry in China, Yinlong energy acquired the international leading LTO core technology by stockholding US Altairnano technology Co., Ltd.
Yinlong > Advantage >

[QUOTE= Example, show threads / posts / reports where these cells are in already in use for nominal 12V banks, 100-800AH capacity range, along with the ancillary charge / control hardware used.

> I wrote"NEW" dimensions
I hope You are not to old for that

[QUOTE= needs for fast charging and higher discharge rates. It is rare for over 1C to actually be "needed" in mobile House energy storage.

> That´s Your opinion. For example in a hybrid drive You need high discharge rates.

[QUOTE= Can be accommodated when needed with LFP.

> Yes, but mabe LTO does a much better job with much more life cycles for less $$$, and L E S S SAFETY ISSUES that are complex and expensive to deal with.

[QUOTE= And yes for those few spending lots of time in Arctic conditions and unwilling to provide a heated space for their bank > down to -55ºC

> January 2–3, 2018: A winter storm resulted in snow and a wintry mix (freezing rain, sleet, and ice) across northern Florida from Tallahassee to the outskirts of Jacksonville and as far south as Gainesville, with temperatures in the 20s and dewpoints in the teens in the morning
Now You disappoint me again. Below 24ºF charging gets critical. Have You done Your home work ?

POUCH CELLS
[url]https://www.ev-power.eu/blog/Chargers-and-charging/Operating-temperature-of-LFP-Cells.html[/url]

26650 CYLINDER
https://battlebornbatteries.com/are-...po4-batteries/

Here is some good NEWS ....."off the shelf"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdBcrroFCgQ

LTO Operating ambient temperature -50°C ~ 65°C (Charging)
Storage ambient temperature -20°C ~ 45°C Short-term (within 1 month)
-20°C ~ 20°C Long-term (within 1 year)
Storage humidity <70%
https://files.i4wifi.cz/inc/_doc/att..._datasheet.pdf

FACTS / SPEC SHEETS..... NOT OPINIONS

I hope You can see why I have a different point of view ? . I don´t wanna treat a sick patient with medicine. I try to prevent that he gets sick. I am always concerned with the side effects and the loose ends. I don´t create more problems if it can be avoided... and try if technically posible due to innovation, eliminate the bugs if the $$$$$ allow me to do so. Keep it simple, easy to maintain and easy to fix.

[QUOTE= Would be nice. But IMO all the other infrastructure systems required to be developed to support this chemistry will make thermostats and heating pads look pretty low-tech and reliable.
[QUOTE= pioneer hobbyists. There are also people like me with a wild imagination. I just meant as opposed to experienced professionals, implementing proven, or at least soon-to-be-mainstream solutions.

> Wouldn´t it be just easier and a lot less complicated if there is a better battery in the first place ?

[QUOTE= Each new chemistry will take decades of use in other contexts, before they have the proven hardware infrastructures and a critical mass of knowledgeable vendors and aftermarket tech professionals needed to support use as mobile House energy storage

> Well THXs god not all people have the same attitude, because otherwise it might take forever.
The more I start digging I find indicators that the markets are on the verge of going mainstream with LTO technology. Seems like Toshiba with there SCiB™ SIP Series LTO battery meets all Your indicated requirements and for sure a lot more. At this level it´s all about quality control, standards and certifications to cover insurance policies.
Here is there official 2017 short cut main stream cooky in case You are hungry and wanna taste.
[url]

Well, I found a little something that might be of interest.
It´s not a lot, but I thought a little is better then nothing

[url]

[warrior 90]

[QUOTE= Below 24ºF charging gets critical.

POUCH CELLS
[url]https://www.ev-power.eu/blog/Chargers-and-charging/Operating-temperature-of-LFP-Cells.html[/url]

26650 CYLINDER
* https://battlebornbatteries.com/are-...po4-batteries/

Here is some good NEWS ....."off the shelf"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdBcrroFCgQ

LTO Operating ambient temperature -50°C ~ 65°C (Charging)
Storage ambient temperature -20°C ~ 45°C Short-term (within 1 month)
-20°C ~ 20°C Long-term (within 1 year)
Storage humidity <70%
https://files.i4wifi.cz/inc/_doc/att..._datasheet.pdf




The missing part, Sorry

26650 CYLINDER
https://battlebornbatteries.com/are-...po4-batteries/

Yes, our batteries do have temperature restrictions. The batteries will no longer accept a charge once the temperature drops to 24 degrees F, but they will continue to discharge until the temperature reaches -4 degrees F. We do suggest insulated battery boxes, or heating blankets to help keep the temperature up on the batteries. As far as heat is concerned, the batteries will shut down once the temperature hits 135 degrees F.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by ronstory

Limited discharge rate

What is it, like below 1C?

Hard to imagine that being an issue with House bank usage.

The weird voltage I see as the fundamental problem, beyond the chemistry being new to the community.

> my alternator would never tax the charge rating on the battery

Actually it is the other way around, high demand requires the alternator be protected from the bank by expensive infrastructure.

It is very rare for anything on a boat to be making "too much" power for the bank.

> and solar would be a positively be positively boring

Boring is an important design goal with electrickery

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by warrior 90

POUCH CELLS
…
26650 CYLINDER
…
Here is some good NEWS ....."off the shelf"

This thread will quickly become overwhelmed with confusion referencing such wildly different battery types and chemistries.

Best to start a separate thread for each.

Ideally a little google ** will reveal dozens of very informative threads where they've already been discussed in detail.

e.g. https://www.google.com/search?q=site...orn+OR+drop-in

[Delfin]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Yes we are all here to try and add to the collective wisdom.
John is as you say mostly a very generous contributor. However in his conserative approach, which I dont totally disagree with, was being a little 'dismissive' of this new possible variation.
Ok the reply was perhaps also a little defensive but I also see his point of wanting to explore possible new developments.
My suggestion is we all try and keep things on as positive contributions as possible.

Peace

Yes, he's very generous with his posts. Thousands and thousands and thousands across multiple sites in a very short time.

Battery technology is evolving very quickly and it will be interesting to see how different variants find their niche in practical applications. Clearly, the operating requirements of EVs will dominate future innovation, but that seems to align well with marine needs for the most part.

[warrior 90]

[QUOTE= I could leave them in my boat over winter. They would be good for artic travelers.

>rgleason, that would eliminate all problems with temps below 24ºF (?) on boats
>but more then that it would also eliminate all risks in regards before You buy the batteries...transport, warehouse, improper handling

[QUOTE=They are for mobile purposes [url]https://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-Cells/[/url]

>I understand they are for all applications

[QUOTE= - Better Anodes
Recharge efficiency of 98%
Highest energy to weight yet seen.
Able to store and deliver current peaks that are between 30 and 100 times that of ordinary lithium batteries.
Additional lithium-titanate nanocrystals on the surface of its anode and instead of the conventional carbon material that is used in normal lithium-ion batteries.
Because of this large surface are, re-charging the LTO battery is also very quick. The improvement in the surface area of the battery drastically increases the LTO cells general stability and further also improves the LTO technology safety.
lithium titanate batteries can be widely used in electric vehicles and charging stations, tourist coaches, yachts, wind and solar energy storage power
Electric Car Parts LTO
Wikipedia LTO
Some other LTO
[url=http://www.kokpower.com/lithium-tita...teries-lto_c11]Lithium Titanate Batteries Manufacturers,LTO Batteries[/url]
http://www.large-battery.com/special...rature-battery

> Hahaha, You did some serious snooping around

Look here, same battery, Yinlong energy acquired the international leading LTO core technology by stockholding US Altairnano technology Co., Ltd.
Create a new energy closed loop industry chain with core technology and intellectual property rights.
Those guys are cooking and for sure they are not the only ones
Yinlong > Advantage >


[QUOTE=See Sila Nano and [url]https://www.forbes.com/sites/alexkna.../#342b53aa51be[/url]
I could not reference the MIT Technology Review articles because those are by subscription, but they are all good.

> To my knowledge in this sector and in distribution the leading tech is Vanadium Redox. I like this tech but unfortunately we can´t use it on boats ... too heavy and bulky
_________________________________________________

[QUOTE=Warrier, look at the discharge rates aren't they higher. Is that a game changer too? How would that work in your boat? I am not saying it won't work. I just don't know.

> If You have a high discharge rate that´s good for high loads like windless, water makers, AC, electric propulsion but that doesn´t mean You need it.
The problem is the charging

COMPARE

> LTO 40 amp
Max. discharge current 10 C (400 A)
They don´t show ideal discharge rate?
If there is no heat maybe with LTO tech it doesn´t matter anymore and You can run full load permanent ? ....will that affect life cycles ?
Sounds logic but I don´t know
[url]https://files.i4wifi.cz/inc/_doc/attach/StoItem/6991/LTO-40AH-CY_datasheet.pdf[/url]

> LFP 40 amp
Max discharge current (A) 400
Optimal discharge current (A) 20
https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah...40Ah.html#tab2

> LFP 26650 CYLINDER 100 amp
Discharge Rate..... ?
Best I could find so far
https://battlebornbatteries.com/comp...teries-series/
100 AMP = 30 X 26650 = 1,2 KILOWATT
I guess they mean Discharge Rate for 100 amp = rough 1000 $

Well, there are still a few loose ends till we can compare apples to potatos

[QUOTE= Perhaps with solar would help.

> Why do You mention solar in ref to discharge rate ?

[QUOTE= They're the right size, weight and price for our boat, but I am not ready to jump on this!

> Hell NO, of course not. Let´s first find out what this battery can do and what not !!
Next step is integrating in a system on a boat

I've forgotten the batteries used by telco companies now that are solar powered, but they have a very short discharge time. I'l try to dredge up the article.
I am not familiar with the subject
____________________________________________


[QUOTE=The EV Car 55Ah, 1-5C, 2.4V13.6L * 2.1D in 345 * 55 mm 4.3 Lbs. / 1.95 Kg, 20,000 Charge Cycles!

2.4v x 5 = 12.0v
5 x $202= $1010 or 55ah
$1212 x 4 = $4040
No way that I'd use these regardless.

> I don´t see Your point. Was also trying to play with 6 S. Some charging profiles of alternators and charge controllers are +14 Volts or can be adjusted. ... and with 24 and 48 Volt. There are issues with the charging and discharging profile but that is the same with the LFP at 3,2 Volts

Sorry, don´t get it.. I think in terms of house bank on a boat
1 LTO unit = 40 amps = ca.60 $
12 V = 5 units in series = 12 Volt - 40 amps = 300 $
x 10 = 12 Volt - 400 amp = 3.000 $

> Battleborn etc = 4 x 100 amp = 4.000 $

Well, that might be cheaper but I am still fishing on that
They also use LFP 26650

> Smartec = 4 x 100 amp = 400 - 520 $ = 1600 - 2080 $ + shipping handling >You might get away with customs when You ship to marina
[url]https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/Smart-Lithium-battery-12v-100ah-Bluetooth_60705664345.html?spm=a2700.7724857.norma lList.33.2d9c3eeeJeYr20[/url]

> LFP
4 x units 3,2 volts - 40 amps = 12 Volts - 400 amp = 500 $ x 4 = 2000 $
https://www.ev-power.eu/Winston-40Ah...-2V-400Ah.html


Yeah, that´s 50% more expensive then LFP but when I think about the added benefits and safety I am willing to think.
When I think of Hydro drive and added fuel range, or maybe smaller tank and genset with less weight + much longer life cycles + always plenty of juice on board for the power hogs + the batteries might last longer then the engine and much less cost of maintenance then in starts to make sense to me.

What drives me cracy is investing to upgrade the boat and finding out afterwards that it is out dated technology.

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by spiv

I am looking at a new 6~800 Amps bank.
My understanding of the subject is limited, these discussions are very helpful to me.
Please continue. ��������

Hi Spiv

I also have a serious chat with the cruising kitty on the agenda $$$ soon
I hope she won´t find me with my pants down
Well,like I said NEW
So I am also dancing at the limits and I am more guided by the instincts.

Keep looking

[warrior 90]

Originally Posted by Q Xopa

Yes we are all here to try and add to the collective wisdom.
John is as you say mostly a very generous contributor. However in his conserative approach, which I dont totally disagree with, was being a little 'dismissive' of this new possible variation.
Ok the reply was perhaps also a little defensive but I also see his point of wanting to explore possible new developments.
My suggestion is we all try and keep things on as positive contributions as possible.

Peace

I agree

We don´t have to agree on everything

Different points of view add on to the collective wisdom

[warrior 90]

[QUOTE=john61ct;2764188]This thread will quickly become overwhelmed with confusion referencing such wildly different battery types and chemistries.

Yes, that is possible if we don´t !!! watch our step. !!!
IMO many people might not even be so interested in the chemistry. They only want a clear and easy visual info with words they understand to make decisions. So let´s try to use a moderate tech vocabulary.

We can have opinions/critics BUT.... CONCLUSIONS should always be clearly backed up and referenced to by links to docs to show quality of information.

Originally Posted by Best to start a separate thread for each.

If we do that, we might have several never ending threads and people wondering around getting even more confused
Let´s try to keep it compact, always preserving the core data

WHAT IS THE LTO BATTERY ?
HOW DOES THE LTO BATTERY PERFORM COMPARED TO OTHERS ?

CONCLUSIONS...... POSITIVE ?
NEGATIVE ?


CAN WE INTEGRATE LTO BATTERIES ON A BOAT ?
HOW ARE WE GOING TO DO THAT ?

CONCLUSIONS...... POSITIVE ?
NEGATIVE ?

There are plenty of threads about the other chemistry and battery types on CF. and the web.
We only need to compare.
That includes integration in a system


[QUOTE=Ideally a little google ** will reveal dozens of very informative threads where they've already been discussed in detail.

That´s right. We only have to make sure people find it when they need it and if possible with easy direct links to save time

e.g. [url

https://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Acruisersforum.com+battle-born+OR+drop-in[/url]

?????? Dead Link.... yeah, sometimes it´s tricky

Just ideas

[john61ct]

Link in your quote works just fine from here.

If not for you, try copy and paste

[warrior 90]

THXs John, got it

FAST & EASY for a CF reference with date & google TRANSLATOR
However the corresponding google images are a real mess.
Guess we can´t change that but going to a ref YT or image directly from an active link on the thread is perfect.

Only draw backs .... lot´s of space needed.....and when some one screws up like it happened to me, same big YT image shows up multiple > bad visual effect.

Great tool. I love it.

[john61ct]

Glad to help, but I do not understand the rest.

My main suggestions at this point:

LFP banks based on large prismatic cells are IMO the only non-lead type suitable for House banks in a mobile context

And to keep discussion of each separate "other type" of battery in its own separate thread.

[warrior 90]

[QUOTE=john61ct;2764689]Glad to help, but I do not understand the rest.

> To keep things compact instead of writing a comment that You already did, instead You use the active link of the google CF reference corresponding to that thread with the date of Your comments
That allows me with a click to open up a second CF page and read what You wrote in reference at the time or whatever link You choose to back up Your comment.


[QUOTE= My main suggestions at this point:

LFP banks based on large prismatic cells are IMO the only non-lead type suitable for House banks in a mobile context

> NOT at this stage
If LTO is a games changer we need to be able to compare......

>>>>> BANG for $$$$ <<<<<<

Positive ?
Negative ?
Possible Dangers ?

I guess that´s what it all comes down to in the end, Right ?

[QUOTE= And to keep discussion of each separate "other type" of battery in its own separate thread.

> There is no " other type "...." ONLY ONE TYPE " that is the best for application on boats and people have to be able to form their own opinion with the data they find here.
You insist in LFP. I say LTO possible game changer.
I might be wrong. Let´s find out and compare the numbers, quirks and features?
How else can others find out what´s best for them if we don´t compare competing battery technologies ?

I wanna know if LFP is the best for me or if there is something better

> SAFETY of LTO batteries ?

The LTO based batteries have lower voltage: between 2.8V and 1.5V (the nominal voltage is 2.3V). Nevertheless, the lower operating voltage brings significant advantages in terms of safety.

The real problem " for me " was always the charging: I am sure my power hogs take care of the rest. I would even plug in the Dinghy if it makes sense

I seperate the charging in two parts
The one related to the battery xxxxx ?
The one related to the charging sources XXXX ?

The ones related to the charging sources (Alternator,Solar etc.) remain the same !!

* but with LTO batteries compared to LFP some of the biggest safety issues will disappear... > when using recommended charge parameters

> LIFE CYCLES ?
Extreme durable life-cycle: The large cycle life and high rate capability of LTO based batteries also brings unique advantages in applications where maximal cycle life is required. Using those cells properly you can easily exceed 30,000 cycles life-time.

> ADVANTAGES of LOW TEMP CHARGING and STORAGE (below 24ºF) ?

> DISCHARGE CURRENT

LTO 40 amp
Max. discharge current 10 C (400 A)
They don´t show ideal discharge rate?
If there is no heat maybe with LTO tech it doesn´t matter anymore and You can run full load permanent ? ....will that affect life cycles ?
Sounds logic but I don´t know > NEEDS CONFIRMATION !!


LFP 40 amp
Max discharge current (A) 400
Optimal discharge current (A) 20

> Effeciency ?

LTO based batteries also have a wider operating temperature range and a recharge efficiency exceeding 98%

More info...
> [url]https://www.ev-power.eu/LTO-technology/Lithium-Titanate-Oxid-Battery-Cell-LTO-2-4V-40AH-Cyllindrical.html[/url]


Thinking about what´s best for "ME!" till now I was always a firm defender of large LFP Cells (LifePo4 Prismatic Cells)). But even from the most conservative point of view I find myself challenged with hard to beat data and statements in regards to LTO , that leed me to reconsider my position

unless somebody can convince me otherwise.

[john61ct]

My intention was

1 for you to catch up on all the past threads about Battle Born and other drop ins, and

2 to show you how you can do the same for other topics you might want to explore.

If you want to experiment with LTO, "go for it" and please keep us informed.

[nebster]

To me, the issues with LTO look to be:

1. Cost. $650/kWh versus ~$300-450/kWh.
2. Volumetric energy density. 104Wh/L versus 200-325Wh/L for LFP, or at least twice as big.
3. Specific energy. 74Wh/kg versus 100-150Wh/kg for LFP, or at least a third heavier.
4. Cylindrical cells. These are small and harder to work with for a DIY build. Do these things come in bigger form factors?

The advantages seem like they probably aren't going to outweigh the size and cost drawbacks, but let's list 'em anyway:

1. Cycle life. Well, is 30k real? LFP can achieve >10k cycles, too, but only if you really baby them. What are the requirements to achieve 30k? Personally my opinion is that anything over about 5-6k is not meaningful... we'll all be dead or in new boats or using fusion reactors in 20 years. Probably in 10.

2. Thermal operating range. This is nice, especially for something like an EV. If your battery compartment can't stay above freezing, this seems pretty handy. My sense is that most boats have space for batteries where the temp stays reasonable.

3. Thermal safety. This is nice, but LFP is quite safe, too. The real question is whether a charge event*(under or over) actually hurts the cell. If not, that might relax the requirements for battery monitoring a bit, since you could just resuscitate a cell or a pack if it falls over at some point.

4. Charge/discharge rate. Irrelevant for home ESS.

5. Voltage level. Doesn't matter much for larger packs at 24V+, with modern wide-range inverter/chargers. LFP at 3.2V nominal is already small enough. Not sure at 12V how much 12V gear would struggle here.

6. Voltage curve. I like that the curve is steeper: it makes state estimation easier for everyone. But this is a pretty small nice-to-have.


My quick, crude verdict is that this isn't a viable competitor at this price and volume point for mobile systems at scale.