New Gels or LIPO4

[Grattaway]

Advice please

I have removed my house batteries being 6, 2 volt 100a/h Sonnenschein A600 gel - - installed 2008 so end of life
They were installed with 3 standing up and 3 lying down and as a result space is at a premium for anything I replace them with
If I replace like with like I could also choose a Mastervolt equivalent (MVSV750) as they have same footprint

Anyone with experience of either manufacturers products that would say one is superior to the other

Alternative would be a LIPO4 system but space would likely dictate 400 a/h not 600 - I know its a crude number but
Local supply where boat is in Malaysia has Winston Thundersky units available. Again anyone used or can provide any advice - any and all appreciated
TBH like for like would be easiest and cheapest maybe not smartest

Thanks in advance

[Ballsnall]

Originally Posted by Grattaway

TBH like for like would be easiest and cheapest maybe not smartest

Sorry can't help with those brands but I very much doubt they work out cheaper than lithium over the lifetime use.

[Jp Nomad]

Just keep in mind that 400 AH of lithium is all usable.
So it is more usable AH then 600ah of gel as you only want to be running the gels down to 60% or higher for longer life

[s/v Jedi]

If you can get 400Ah Winston cells then you have your hands on the best cells available, go for those!

Attached my Winston battery: 8x 400Ah in series for 24V 10.25kWh.

You need to study how to use these, search for the articles from Rod Collins on LiFePO4 cells. He also has the same Winston cells.

[Ballsnall]

Originally Posted by Jp Nomad

Just keep in mind that 400 AH of lithium is all usable.
So it is more usable AH then 600ah of gel as you only want to be running the gels down to 60% or higher for longer life

Absolutely, thought there are other costs involved in upgrading to lithium it doesn't have to be an expensive exercise and overall should still work out at a lower cost or similar per usable ah over the expected life cycle.

[SailingHarmonie]

The Lithium fanboys have spoken, now it's my turn

Your last set of gels lasted for 15 years. That is pretty typical for a well care for set of gels, and unless you greatly change the way you use your boat, you should expect the same life span out of a new set. For all those people who are telling you "Li are going to be cheaper---in the long run." How EXACTLY "long" is that going to be before he recoups the added upfront cost of a new Li install?

I think it is also kind of funny that people can make a recommendation like "Switch to Li!" and not ask you ONE single question about how you use your boat. I am pretty sure than any thoughtful Li fan would admit that they do not make economic or even technical sense for every person on every boat. I am making the assumption that the Gels you have had for a decade and a half have worked for you, and given you the energy you need when you need it. If that is NOT always true, THEN you should consider changing to Li, maybe.

The gels are going to be easier and cheaper to install than a new system of Li. You would see NO financial benefit (if ever) from Li until it was time to replace this next set of gels. And in the year 2038 when it is time to replace your new gels, NONE of us know what battery technology will look like. But I'll bet you it will be better than the best you can get from Li today...

Installing a new Li system also cares a small--but real--technical risk. You, and your installed equipment, are obviously well suited to your existing batteries giving them a long and happy life. Upgrading to Li batteries cares a risk that things might not go well. Certainly there have been several people on here who have cooked an expensive set of new Li's through mismanagement of their systems. That will surely kill ANY imagined cost benefit for Li. The technical risk of replacing your batteries in-kind is very small.

This is NOT a technical criticism of Li battery systems. In the right application, on the right boats, used the right way, they are really awesome. If you have technical needs for the benefits that Li bring, they can be obviously worth the capital cost up front.

This is just pointing out that the simple cost per amp-hour of a project over a 30+ year life span is not really a very sophisticated economic analysis and doesn't address the real financial world.

In short, if the Gel batteries reliably supply power in a way that works for the way YOU use your boat, I would stick with them. You will not get any extra "cool" points, but you will have a good chunk of extra money in your pocket for the next 15 years, and that is not peanuts.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by SailingHarmonie

The Lithium fanboys have spoken, now it's my turn

Your last set of gels lasted for 15 years. That is pretty typical for a well care for set of gels, and unless you greatly change the way you use your boat, you should expect the same life span out of a new set. For all those people who are telling you "Li are going to be cheaper---in the long run." How EXACTLY "long" is that going to be before he recoups the added upfront cost of a new Li install?

I think it is also kind of funny that people can make a recommendation like "Switch to Li!" and not ask you ONE single question about how you use your boat. I am pretty sure than any thoughtful Li fan would admit that they do not make economic or even technical sense for every person on every boat. I am making the assumption that the Gels you have had for a decade and a half have worked for you, and given you the energy you need when you need it. If that is NOT always true, THEN you should consider changing to Li, maybe.

The gels are going to be easier and cheaper to install than a new system of Li. You would see NO financial benefit (if ever) from Li until it was time to replace this next set of gels. And in the year 2038 when it is time to replace your new gels, NONE of us know what battery technology will look like. But I'll bet you it will be better than the best you can get from Li today...

Installing a new Li system also cares a small--but real--technical risk. You, and your installed equipment, are obviously well suited to your existing batteries giving them a long and happy life. Upgrading to Li batteries cares a risk that things might not go well. Certainly there have been several people on here who have cooked an expensive set of new Li's through mismanagement of their systems. That will surely kill ANY imagined cost benefit for Li. The technical risk of replacing your batteries in-kind is very small.

This is NOT a technical criticism of Li battery systems. In the right application, on the right boats, used the right way, they are really awesome. If you have technical needs for the benefits that Li bring, they can be obviously worth the capital cost up front.

This is just pointing out that the simple cost per amp-hour of a project over a 30+ year life span is not really a very sophisticated economic analysis and doesn't address the real financial world.

In short, if the Gel batteries reliably supply power in a way that works for the way YOU use your boat, I would stick with them. You will not get any extra "cool" points, but you will have a good chunk of extra money in your pocket for the next 15 years, and that is not peanuts.

I don’t think you realize the cost of those gel cells? They are more expensive.

Also, they will not allow the high loads from inverter for an electric galley etc. and the way things work in the world we have today, the switch to induction cooking is inevitable.

[sailorboy1]

I am not a fan of any gel battery.

But if your last set lasted 15 years and:
1- you didn't have use issues
2- you aren't going to change how you boat and use your batteries

just get the less expensive batteries as there is no reason to upgrade to LFP

[Fuss]

A600 630€ each x 6 = 3780€ .
can’t run induction. as you need double for this.
so before Lithium, yes, why would you have anything else,but still people bought AGM … i really don’t understand the stupid decisions people used to make. i mean really agm vs A600s… it’s no contest. Anyway why did you damage them so early… my lead acids , not gel, lasted 18 years before I damaged them…. 18 years vs AGM….
but anyway…I digress… get the Lithium… have some excitement and make something new!! while your at it remove the gas… remove the gas and get an induction cooktop and a combination microwave fan oven… i think I was the first all electric galley boat and had to put up with all the AGM boaters with their gas stoves telling me i would not be able to run an induction cooktop… and also equalising at 32v would damage my batteries …it worked only because i had 600 ah 24v. but it did work… i would not want the always try to get back to full charge and equalising maintenance of lead acid again…

[SailingHarmonie]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

I don’t think you realize the cost of those gel cells? They are more expensive.

Also, they will not allow the high loads from inverter for an electric galley etc. and the way things work in the world we have today, the switch to induction cooking is inevitable.

I do know most certainly know the cost of gels, and Li and AGM, and FLA, actually. Paying attention to that is kind of important to what I do.

You are doing EXACTLY what I see so much of here. You have NO IDEA if this guy even cooks on his boat but you insist he has to switch to induction cooking. Does he even have the generation capacity to support that? If he has gel cells, probably not, since they do not typically support high charging rates. You are making recommendations with NO background at all.

You're applying the logic of, "If it's good for me, it much be what everybody NEEDS to have." You might know a lot, but you know nothing about the OP's needs, and that really seems pretty important to make a specific recommendation.

I stand by my recommendation: What you have has worked for you. Don't change for the sake of change, change because there is a good reason to. If you have a good reason and want to change how you use your boat, go for it. If not, save your money.

[Fuss]

yes, but he asked for advice… if we all wrote… stick with what you have mate, he wouldn’t have a cross section of opinions and therefore would be resigned to lowering his head and quietly walking into the sonnenschein shop and , without looking up, saying same again please…

[Adelie]

Originally Posted by Jp Nomad

Just keep in mind that 400 AH of lithium is all usable.
So it is more usable AH then 600ah of gel as you only want to be running the gels down to 60% or higher for longer life

LFP can be 100% usable, but it should be more like 80-90% usable.
You can get 50% more cycles by limiting discharge to 80%.
https://www.powertechsystems.eu/home...e-lifepo4/?amp

[Adelie]

I have 2 observations for the OP:
A. Replacing with Gels means the rest of your electrical system is fine as it is.
If you replace with LFP you need to look at the rest of your system. Will the alternator regulator allow the batteries to accept maximum amperage and burn out the alternator? Can the alternator regulator be adjusted for use with LFP? Can the shore power charger be adjusted? Can the solar controller be adjusted? Wind?
B. My sense is that in the long run cheaper Na-ion batteries will take over the market for uses that are less weight sensitive (like boats and maybe cars) leaving LFP for cars and maybe aircraft. That’s about 10yr out. So change to LFP now and change again in 10-15yr when these batteries get replaced or go another 10-15yr with Gels.
If you were going to do something that needed lots of energy or lots or power like electrical propulsion (EP) or electrical galley (EG) then LFP now would be the way to go.

[Fuss]

so you are suggesting to go with A Adelie??

[Adelie]

I’m suggesting that the OP should look beyond just the cost of the cells when deciding.
A. If all of the regulators can be easily adjusted to accommodate LFP the there’s no added cost. If they can’t be easily adjusted then potential costs need to be accounted for.
B. If the OP wants to dip their toe into electric cooking either system would be fine. If they want to get 2/3 induction burners and a convection oven then both systems probably are barely adequate for total energy capacity but the Gel isn’t going to be able to deal with instantaneous power demand.