New Victron Multi 5kVA added to Old Multi 3kVA

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Thanks Nick, I do like your Ver 3 diagram and I will include it in my review with Ocean Gecko Electrical Supervisor to see if he can explain it in detail to me and how he would apply it to my 2 Distribution Panels and 2 Multi Units, with the space and materials available.

He just finished doing a complete electrical refit of a 49m Feadship to class, so I will listen to his preference

If possible, could you send me a link to the Source Select Switch you used?

The one thing that scares me about using Power Management here in the Philippines, is the huge fluxuations on Shore Power Voltage.

It is supposed to be 220v 60 cycles, but I can see it vary hourly from 165V to 210v on a good day, here in Subic.

They blow Transformers constantly and the new Inverter type split Air cons always have problems because of this Voltage issue

If the lack of amps was just the problem as Dockhead experiences, then the Power Management is great.
But if you are fluctuating in and out of Victron's minimum AC Input Voltage Range of 187 V then eventually bad things will happen.

Not rushing to get this done, till I have all the answers.

He will not be familiar with the diagram because they only install the manufacturers recommended diagrams. The “custom” options offered are just spit & polish, not better functionality.

Just ask here what you like to have explained in detail and I will do so.

The rotary switches can be had at very high cost from sources like Blue Sea Systems, but you can also do like they do and order from China yourself. I don’t seem to be able to browse eBay right now so can’t show which ones I ordered... will try again later.

Your panel uses breaker to select a source, with a slider preventing you to switch two at the same time. That is just fine, you don’t need to change that to rotary switch, which still needs breakers or fuses anyway. To put a distribution panel to one source or another can be done by adding the rotary switch to that panel, but also somewhere else, feeding the panel.

[s/v Jedi]

Here they are: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Baomain-Uni...item2f47f9e1a6

[Pelagic]

Thanks for the link, I should be able to source in the Philippines.

Appreciate your help and it’s all starting to make very good sense.

I modified your diagram to illustrate my situation with just a few notes/questions.

1. Bypass Normally Open, means that even if someone accidently turned on SHORE at my panel, nothing would happen?
   
2. I’ve labeled 5kW and 3Kw for clarity. I do want to have the ability to have both Inverters on at same time so understand the Source Group concept and will detail out my consumers for your review.
   
3. My new R/O has a 24V HP pump, so can I remove Group B ?
   
4. I need a UPS function for the Intel NUC and Monitor on the Bridge, so that I don’t loose work if I change source. That’s why I first thought of making the 3kW a UPS circuit using sub panel, but now I realize that’s overkill and your solution is far more sophisticated
   
5. I have this 1800W Prosine Inverter which came with the boat, still works and I relocated it behind the dining salon, with Dutch style Outlet for emergency power. I could task that for the Bridge computer to give me UPS, or is that still overkill?
   
6. Note That backup Skyla 50 Charger will go down to ER for start battery.
   
7. Lastly, I found this Master Transfer Switch, that was installed in 2008 to switch between the “Yellow” Prosine and “Blue” Multi. Removed it when I relocated the Prosine. Does that have any value in this installation?

Thanks again for your help

[s/v Jedi]

- input source selection: yes you modified the diagram correctly and you already have this on your panel. The important part here is that you can never have both shore and genset connected at the same time.

- load groups: I have three groups but you can have just one or two or five. This is where you do your power planning, for example if you want to run A/C, water heater, induction cooktop and convection oven simultaneously, you need to divide these loads over different groups so that you can assign different sources to them.

- bypass: it has multiple roles. In normal daily use, many boats have their A/C and water heater connected in bypass-mode. This means they can only run it on shore power or genset. That’s all there is to it. My diagram makes this bypass available as a source in the distribution panel source select so that it adds a second function: in case of a malfunction or for whatever reason you want to run anything straight from shire power or genset, you can do it.
You normally always have the bypass breaker on and the distribution group with A/C and water heater set to the bypass source. Boats with very large solar arrays, lithium battery banks and the new variable rpm, inverter technology A/C can power those from battery and can switch this to an inverter source.

- UPS for computers. This is just a setting in the Victron inverter/chargers. Your description of the additional inverter creates what is a called an on-line style UPS, which is always in battery powered inverter mode so does not have to switch to/from inverter mode. I do recommend this for critical systems but make sure the ups is a true sine model and not too big for the load. I use a 600W model for this. You can also just delete it when you make sure that the computer is always in a distribution group that is powered by an inverter that has the UPS setting enabled... never in bypass source.

- Both inverter/chargers on simultaneously: well this is a setting. You do want that possible in that any load must be able to be powered by either inverter/charger even just for the case where one of them fails. This is the core of the redundancy built into a good system. You can freely have both units input breakers on so they both charge the battery bank simultaneously. You can have both output breakers on and choose which one to use for which distribution group/panel. You can on purpose switch one input breaker off, which forces the inverter/charger into inverter mode and use that one for powering systems aboard. At the same time you have the other unit with it’s input breaker on, charging the batteries and nit using it for powering loads at all (because it’s shore power of the wrong frequency or not stable enough to your liking)

- watermaker: yes I need to be able to power my watermaker from inverter so if you have a DC unit, this whole group can be deleted.

- auto transformer 120/240V: you just have simple 230V 50Hz so yes your modification is correct, just remove the auto transformer and forget about it. The rotary switches have two poles which is the hot/phase and the neutral for you. I have to deal with two hots and a neutral so you’re much better of

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pelagic;3221245[B

]. . . I need a UPS function for the Intel NUC and Monitor on the Bridge[/B], so that I don’t loose work if I change source. That’s why I first thought of making the 3kW a UPS circuit using sub panel, but now I realize that’s overkill and your solution is far more sophisticated. . .

I think both of these solutions are massive overkill.

Just run NUC and monitor off DC power and forget all that AC inverter/UPS faffery. That's what I do anyway.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I think both of these solutions are massive overkill.

Just run NUC and monitor off DC power and forget all that AC inverter/UPS faffery. That's what I do anyway.

You mean the kind of DC power that is also used for windlass, engine starters, inverters, electric winches, charged by alternators etc., in other words the kind that is loaded with transients, dips and other noise?

[s/v Jedi]

Okay, this is not up to standards for sharing but I’m not finishing this any day soon so it will have to do...

This is my first draft for the part of the new switch panel that has the distribution groups. My panel height is limited to 8” and I managed to get three groups stacked in there.

Note that I have single pole breakers for 120V loads and double pole breaker for 240V loads. In your case of 230V 50Hz all your breakers can be single pole when your neutral is bonded to ships ground.

Note how I spread load over groups: galley, cooktop, microwave, oven and coffeemaker all clustered together but spread over groups. Also note the spare breakers and how group 3 only has two rows while the others have three.

Labeling at the source select switch: I/C means Inverter/Charger and I need to find out what will fit at which font size etc. Also, I will use colors to identify groups with borders drawn around but also for labels for sources etc. I design and order front panels on-line, with Front Panel Express. Check that out if you ever contemplate a new panel.

This is just to explain the groups and how you decide which loads you want to run simultaneously and how to distribute those over the available sources, instead of using the Victron parallel operation mode, which locks you into their identical units without all the bypass features.

[s/v Jedi]

This one even rougher but shows the input source selection and breakers. The three squares left of the rotary switch are monitor displays that show volts, amps, watts, hz, kwh etc.

I have all double-pole breakers there because I switch two hot conductors. Often both hot and neutral are switched there and US power designed boats normally have triple-pole breakers. We don’t need that as we don’t have a neutral at our inputs... this is why we have the auto transformers further on, they create our Neutral conductor.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

You mean the kind of DC power that is also used for windlass, engine starters, inverters, electric winches, charged by alternators etc., in other words the kind that is loaded with transients, dips and other noise?

No, I mean the kind that is run through a voltage-stabilizing 24v-12v dropper.

Pelagic's boat, I believe, is 24v like mine. We don't have such problems.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

No, I mean the kind that is run through a voltage-stabilizing 24v-12v dropper.

Pelagic's boat, I believe, is 24v like mine. We don't have such problems.

Yes, behind a good DC-DC converter would be just as good as behind an UPS. If what you have runs straight from 12V, without using any other adapters/converters.

I’m switching to 24V house bank so I’ll be on the good side as well later this year That said, don’t need any of that because I’m on battery powered laptops, iPads etc.

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

- input source selection: yes you modified the diagram correctly and you already have this on your panel. The important part here is that you can never have both shore and genset connected at the same time.

Sorry, been busy receiving new tender, victron order and spares parts last 2 days.

Can you tell from these pictures whether the architecture of my Paneltronics board will allow them to use and repurpose Inverter source selection?

I took these when we relocated panel to a more accessible location and had them cleaned.

If not, then I guess the link you sent would need to be fitted nearby.

My next post will be some photos to show you how tight the electrical locker is so I hope you don't see a problem with this type of panel
Cheers!

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Pelagic

Sorry, been busy receiving new tender, victron order and spares parts last 2 days.

Can you tell from these pictures whether the architecture of my Paneltronics board will allow them to use and repurpose Inverter source selection?

I took these when we relocated panel to a more accessible location and had them cleaned.

If not, then I guess the link you sent would need to be fitted nearby.

My next post will be some photos to show you how tight the electrical locker is so I hope you don't see a problem with this type of panel
Cheers!

Not sure what you mean. An inverter has no source or may be the batteries are the source.

You have a shore power / genset source selection there with something that looks like a sliding lockout so you can only switch one of them on. If sothen that should be okay. There’s an inverter breaker under those with also a slider. No idea how that works but that slider would need to go and the breaker used for something else.

I think you are not familiar enough with these diagrams and switch panels to do this yourself. Get a good electrician, show hime the diagrams we discussed and he should be good to go. He will try to sell you two Multiplus units in parallel operation so it’s up to you to tell him what to do

[Pelagic]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Not sure what you mean. An inverter has no source or may be the batteries are the source. Yes that's what I meant... The 3 position Source slider locks out the inverter /battery source unless selected

You have a shore power / genset source selection there with something that looks like a sliding lockout so you can only switch one of them on. If so then that should be okay. There’s an inverter breaker under those with also a slider. No idea how that works but that slider would need to go and the breaker used for something else.
Did a test this morning:

• SHORE Selected
• All Consumer Breakers OFF
• No power to Multi in "Charger only" Position
• Tested individually each beaker and identified that "Watermaker" label supplies power to Multi Charger
• Multi switched to"ON" goes into standby (blue light) no charger unless Watermaker turned on

I think you are not familiar enough with these diagrams and switch panels to do this yourself. Get a good electrician, show him the diagrams we discussed and he should be good to go. He will try to sell you two Multiplus units in parallel operation so it’s up to you to tell him what to do

No worries, I will not do this myself and like you, will never parallel the units.

I've no experience modifying the back of breaker panels.
It's easy to remove the lower black slider piston and epoxy the hole, so that "Inverter" breaker is not locked out

What I was asking you is if you could tell by my photos whether the Shore/Gen/Inverter assembly Buss on the back could be modified or is the Inverter an integral part of it. All I know is that the breakers were made in Mexico
I'll get the electrician to check that out before ordering the other switches in your design
cheers!

[s/v Jedi]

Ah okay yes you can modify those busses. I have a Paneltronics panel with the same busses as well; it’s just copper jumpers.

It’s the Multiplus input & output breakers plus the bypass that you need to find room for. Seems now the Watermaker breaker has been used an an input breaker but you need 5 positions for this. Check out the panel layouts I uploaded earlier for that section.

[Pelagic]

Curious with about width of your new panel concept, I am also limited to 8” height by 13” wide.. what did you calculate for width? Academic now as I would consider this if boat was in Vancouver, but still curious.

Here are some photos showing limits and layout of my electrical locker as I’ve started opening things up for the Distribution Panels re-wiring and Victron refit.

Ventilation is really good as 8 screened opening above, below, fwd and aft.

The 6 x 260AH Fullriver AGM Batteries are down under dining floor

Inside Electrical locker... it is L-Shaped with the 36 breaker DC Panels (24v & 12v) on top and the main 10 breaker AC panel tucked under

No real estate to mount the rotary switches on outside of locker, so I would need to box them on the inside of the electrical locker.

Inverter/Charger option is to either mount the 2 Multi’s side by or put the less used 3kW unit in where the Skyla is now, but will shift to the ER when I begin.

Probably a dumb question, but does the 3kw/70a Multi Inverter/Charger put out the same heat when working at max temp compensated output?

Subjectively, it seems to put out more heat when charging in full Bulk mode, but then again, I never over-load when on Inverter as I staggered loads.

That’s why I’m comfortable putting the 3kW Multi where the Skyla is as it's Charger is only a backup to the 5kw Unit.

The new 120a Charger is the same as when I combined the 50a Skyla before with the 70a, which brought bank up to absorption pretty fast

The Inboard side of locker is unfinished but will be where the 12v Side is organized.

The Boat has always had just one large 8D 260Ah Battery which supplied both 12V electronics and with long cables to other side of Engine Room, started the Gen.
Never like that so I am putting a dedicated start battery right beside the generator and a smaller Radio Battery down beside the House bank.


I’m also replacing the original Orion 24DC/12DC with Two Orion Tr-smart 24/12-30a (360W) Isolated DC_DC chargers, so this is a UPS option as Dock head suggested.

Work begins after my back heals from lugging that new Multi onboard yesterday!