No joy on shore power

[Stu Jackson]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

Naive? Really? I served aboard a US Navy destroy that was entirely DC powered. When we docked we hooked up to AC shore power. All the lights and outlets still worked.

I have a camping trailer. It is entirely DC powered. I have a DC battery in the trailer. When I'm hooked up to shore power the DC lights work. When I'm on battery power, my AC outlets are powered.

I hardly think is it "naive" to expect your internal systems to be powered no matter where the power comes from. If I designed a system from scratch, that is how I would design it. I guess I'm just "naive".

Perhaps that is NOT the way my boat is set up, I just bought it, so I'm not certain. But that is way I would want it to work.

Since I don't know HOW it was set up, I posed the question. To me, it's nice to hear how others have their boats set up or how they want them to be.

I think this, and your post about how it was in the Navy is what is suggesting to folks about your limitations. It certainly was for me in reading this thread.

You may not believe it, but people actually ARE trying to be helpful by being concerned about your safety.

You don't know many of us from Adam, but many have been "proven" to be reputable electrical boat system gurus on this and other forums. You should consider the importance of listening to them.

The major points are:
- not all boats are the same
- what you desire may not be what is there, physically on your boat

Energizing an unknown boat system is foolhardy.

The ONLY thing that should concern you right now is to learn how YOUR boat is set up. What others do or have done, right now, is immaterial Completely.

When we bought our boat in 1998, I spent the entire first week drawing wiring diagrams, and checking whether the wiring diagram the PO gave me was correct. It wasn't.

Only then did I power it up.

You might want to consider doing the same.

Good luck, but luck should have nothing to do with it. It's not the Navy, it's not your RV and it's not someone elses boat. And what you have may not be what's in the C27 manual you linked.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Stu Jackson

I think this, and your post about how it was in the Navy is what is suggesting to folks about your limitations. It certainly was for me in reading this thread.

You may not believe it, but people actually ARE trying to be helpful by being concerned about your safety.

You don't know many of us from Adam, but many have been "proven" to be reputable electrical boat system gurus on this and other forums. You should consider the importance of listening to them.

The major points are:
- not all boats are the same
- what you desire may not be what is there, physically on your boat

Energizing an unknown boat system is foolhardy.

The ONLY thing that should concern you right now is to learn how YOUR boat is set up. What others do or have done, right now, is immaterial Completely.

When we bought our boat in 1998, I spent the entire first week drawing wiring diagrams, and checking whether the wiring diagram the PO gave me was correct. It wasn't.

Only then did I power it up.

You might want to consider doing the same.

Good luck, but luck should have nothing to do with it. It's not the Navy, it's not your RV and it's not someone elses boat. And what you have may not be what's in the C27 manual you linked.

But then again, Stu might just like to draw.

Mine had been on the hard for 5 years. (and it's an old 1974 boat)

Not long after I bought it in 2011, I put a battery in it and turned everything on. Then later I was able to get the diesel started. (I ran a hose to it. The boat was still on the hard)

I reasoned that the boat (and electrical system) worked okay for the PO who had just cruised it to Florida and most of the way back to his home in Massachusetts when he decided to park it.......but I never did meet the guy.

Many tech types like overkill. That's fine.

And they can tell you how to repair/fix things forever.

Others of us get it going, and go to the next thing.

We don't need to replace every terminal block, lug, or wire in the whole boat or draw a new schematic before we turn on the power

Maybe before we cruise long distance we redo the electrical but for first launch and local sail .......not usually needed

[Bigjim]

From what I can see the AC system doesn't even connect to the DC system for charging. All that is optional. I'll have to check my system to see if someone added this after delivery.

I do have a refrigerator set up, but I don't think I have a hot water heater. There are switches for the refrigerator on my panel but none that I see for Hot water.

In the engine compartment there is what looks like a power inverter. But I have looked at it closely yet. There's no inverter in the diagram that I can see. It has a dedicated circuit but did not come as a standard option.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

Here's the diagram of the Cal 27 Mk3 electrical system

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - Bigjim's Album: Electrical system for Cal-27

It looks the two systems are separate.

The diagram illustrates that the vessel was available with separate AC and DC distribution panels.

The AC panel is not compliant with current ABYC standards on several counts.

While there was provision for a battery charger it is indicated that the actual charger was optional.

There is no provision for or indication of an inverter.

Question: How many times has the vessel electrical system been altered by someone who thought they knew what they were doing, and never updated the vessel wiring diagram?

[nematon785]

That AC side is pretty much an extension cord with 4 places to plug something in.

Far too complicated for anyone who is not a licensed electrician.

ABYC is voluntary compliance. And easy to satisfy by reviewing the standards available online.

I'll save you the cost of the evaluation from a Marine electrical expert:

"Everything in this boat needs to be redone to ABYC standards"

Now take the money you saved on the evaluation and buy a new battery.

Remember every system on the boat should be evaluated by the appropriate expert, any non compliant changes made (even changes made not related to electrical)by a PO could have life threatening results. And we must assume the worst until an expert holds our hand and declares the vessel "Safe"

Lets hire a Hull specialist, a plumbing specialist, a rigging specialist and electrical specialist, a marine mechanic, buy a huge insurance policy, and get out the helmet when each cautiously and carefully comes aboard to check the likely explosion sinking and catastrophic structural failure that will ensue.

If the PO hardwired a cheap automotive battery charger up to the AC side, and put it in the engine compartment, and we energize it with possible fumes present, we are in danger. So considering this possibility I am wrong on all accounts. and will just go mind my own business now

Somewhere there is a middle ground of common sense here. Not sure I am helping so I am retiring from the conversation.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

From what I can see the AC system doesn't even connect to the DC system for charging. All that is optional. .

Correct, if the optional charger was installed (properly), then the batteries (if installed properly) should be charged (if not killed), and DC circuits operational, when AC shore power is connected and respective devices switched on (if all is wired properly).

I'll have to check my system to see if someone added this after delivery.

Correct! Before connecting AC shore power, check to ensure the vessel is wired per diagram and that there are no improper (most likely) "owner modified" AC circuits and that all AC wiring is sound and connected properly to the distribution panel and devices.

Else any defective AC circuit could electrocute you or catch fire.

I do have a refrigerator set up, but I don't think I have a hot water heater.

That would be "Water Heater" (they actually heat cold water). ;-)

There are switches for the refrigerator on my panel but none that I see for Hot water.

In the engine compartment there is what looks like a power inverter.

If there is a power inverter in the engine compartment, be very wary. I am not aware of an IP rated inverter, nor inverter any manufacturer recommends be installed in an engine compartment. Much more likely to be a battery bank isolator, but I'd have to see it.

There's no inverter in the diagram that I can see.

Correct, and if the vessel matches the diagram there is no way that the AC circuits can function if shore power is not connected. Hint: There is the answer to one of your stated issues, that you should have known before expecting AC circuits to work without shore power connection.

It has a dedicated circuit but did not come as a standard option

Nope, no dedicated circuit for an inverter. There is dedicated breaker or switch illustrated for a charger. (There is such as thing as a combination inverter/charger, but very highly unlikely it was offered as an option on that boat, in that era.)

Before connecting batteries, check to ensure the vessel is wired per diagram, that there are no improper "owner modified" DC circuits and that all DC wiring is sound and connected properly to the distribution panel and devices, before connecting the batteries.

Else, simply connecting a battery, any defective DC circuit could catch fire.

Hence my original advise, "STOP THIS INSTANT", and call a friend who is competent to help you.

They would know (hopefully) to check out the wiring BEFORE connecting shore power or batteries.

Else, you're just throwing the dice that there isn't a wiring fault that will hurt you or your boat.

Maybe you feel lucky, but IMHO, the risk isn't worth the reward.

[Bigjim]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

The diagram illustrates that the vessel was available with separate AC and DC distribution panels.

The AC panel is not compliant with current ABYC standards on several counts.

While there was provision for a battery charger it is indicated that the actual charger was optional.

There is no provision for or indication of an inverter.

Question: How many times has the vessel electrical system been altered by someone who thought they knew what they were doing, and never updated the vessel wiring diagram?

FYI, the diagram I posted was from the owners manual. There are no docs from the PO. So your guess is as good as mine.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

FYI, the diagram I posted was from the owners manual. There are no docs from the PO. So your guess is as good as mine.

Yep, that is what the owner's manual says.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...150475504,d.cGw

So all you need to do now is replace or charge the batteries and see if all systems are working when you turn on the power at the dock or on the hard. Or you can pay someone to do the same thing.

There was another thread recently where a guy had a mechanic replace the packing in his stuffing box and adjust it

That's nice but it can be done for a couple bucks or a few hundred

[Bigjim]

There are no fuses, but the owner's manual says it has breakers that should trip automatically.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

There are no fuses, but the owner's manual says it has breakers that should trip automatically.

Awesome. I wish my boat had breakers.

Come to think of it, I've been trusting this crappy looking box the PO built which has fuses and switches. Plus the normal Bristol Switch Panel

No problems so far but I don't cross the bay (17-20 miles) without having my 16'6" kayak assembled and on deck just in case

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Yep, that is what the owner's manual says.
So all you need to do now is replace or charge the batteries and see if all systems are working when you turn on the power at the dock or on the hard.

Well, that is one way, or he could do the smart thing and ensure the wiring is inspected by a competent person to ensure it is safe to connect power before doing so.

Or you can pay someone to do the same thing.

Possibly you could, to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

No one could pay me (or any competent marine electrician) to plug shore power or connect batteries into an old boat of unknown condition (until the wiring was properly assessed).

I have commercial liability insurance premiums, and a business reputation for not burning up boats or electrocuting customers to consider.

There was another thread recently where a guy had a mechanic replace the packing in his stuffing box and adjust it.

This is very common and a wise decision for most boaters.

I can often replace and adjust a packing gland for less than a customer can do it themselves, and of course, it gets done correctly the first time.

I offer to teach them how to adjust it PROPERLY as I go, (if they are agile enough to get into the space), because quite frankly, it is a very low value service that I do mostly for customer relationship development.

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by Bigjim

Here's the diagram of the Cal 27 Mk3 electrical system

Cruisers & Sailing Forums - Bigjim's Album: Electrical system for Cal-27

It looks the two systems are separate.

Pretty amateur schematic but I don't see an AC/DC ground bond and it looks like the AC ground is bonded to the AC neutral on the ground buss .... Scary stuff ! Also suggests a battery charger but shows no connection to batteries.

Looks like it was designed by a land based electrician and it shouldn't be trusted anyway as you have no idea how many unqualified people have "modified" it over the last 30 years.

Strongly suggest you have a qualified ABYC Certified Electrician survey it while you hang over his shoulder. It's a small system and should not take more than an hour. $100 well invested !

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Pretty amateur schematic but I don't see an AC/DC ground bond and it looks like the AC ground is bonded to the AC neutral on the ground buss .... Scary stuff !
Looks like it was designed by a land based electrician.

A "land based electrician" would know better.

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by boatpoker

Not a very good diagram but I don't see an AC/DC ground bond and it looks like the AC ground is bonded to the AC neutral on the ground buss .... Scary stuff !
Looks like it was designed by a land based electrician.

I agree that it doesn't show AC grounding connected to DC grounding as it should by current standards.

But I don't see the AC Neutral / Ground connection issue.

It does seem to have a main AC double pole (line and neutral) breaker with reverse polarity light as it should (and some older vessels don't).

Are you confusing the reverse polarity light as a Neutral / Ground shipboard connection?

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

I agree that it doesn't show AC grounding connected to DC grounding as it should by current standards.

But I don't see the AC Neutral / Ground connection issue.

It does seem to have a main AC double pole (line and neutral) breaker with reverse polarity light as it should (and some older vessels don't).

Are you confusing the reverse polarity light as a Neutral / Ground shipboard connection?

Could be ...... that's a pretty crappy schematic.