No joy on shore power

[boatpoker]

Yeah, looks like you're right Rod. After blowing it up it does look like the reverse indicator light.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

Well, that is one way, or he could do the smart thing and ensure the wiring is inspected by a competent person to ensure it is safe to connect power before doing so.



Possibly you could, to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.

No one could pay me (or any competent marine electrician) to plug shore power or connect batteries into an old boat of unknown condition (until the wiring was properly assessed).

I have commercial liability insurance premiums, and a business reputation for not burning up boats or electrocuting customers to consider.



This is very common and a wise decision for most boaters.

I can often replace and adjust a packing gland for less than a customer can do it themselves, and of course, it gets done correctly the first time.

I offer to teach them how to adjust it PROPERLY as I go, (if they are agile enough to get into the space), because quite frankly, it is a very low value service that I do mostly for customer relationship development.

I'm thinking it's best to do all the above yourself because you are not going to be able to call someone every time you have an electrical problem or your stuffing box packing needs to be replaced and stuffing box adjusted if you are out cruising especially if you are way off the grid

You better know how to do it yourself.

I stopped (heaved too) mid bay recently to troubleshoot an electrical problem where my autopilot and radio were intermittently turning on and off.

I missed a couple radio calls from a war ship and misunderstood his direction. At that point after he passed I immediately heaved too and troubleshot the problem.

It was a bad battery. I removed it and came in on autopilot with VHF on solar and one battery

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I'm thinking it's best to do all the above yourself because you are not going to be able to call someone every time you have an electrical problem ...................

On the other hand, if you don't know what you're doing, you could set your boat on fire and not have to worry about it any more.

Boaters should have some basic knowledge of course, but again, reading a book or asking on a web forum is not going to make you an electrician.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rwidman

On the other hand, if you don't know what you're doing, you could set your boat on fire and not have to worry about it any more.

Boaters should have some basic knowledge of course, but again, reading a book or asking on a web forum is not going to make you an electrician.

It's all about what sort of boater/person your are.

If your are a tech/mech type, you should be able to handle most problems on your boat. (electrical, electronic, computer, mechanical, structural, etc)

My systems are relatively simple like the OP's, but I have the background for the complex as well

You have to know your limitations for sure.

At the same time though, this is the cruiser's forum.

Or you going to cruise close near by your Marine Repair Tech's location or are you going to cruise wherever you desire and if you have a problem fix it or rig something

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I'm thinking it's best to do all the above yourself because you are not going to be able to call someone every time you have an electrical problem or your stuffing box packing needs to be replaced and stuffing box adjusted if you are out cruising especially if you are way off the grid

It depends.

In an ideal world, every boater would be perfectly competent in all boat systems, installation, commissioning, trouble-shooting, and repair.

But as it stands, few are.

I know, because I inspect their boats every day.

If one has researched the standards adequately, (which generally means reading them cover to cover, several times, and applying that knowledge in a practical sense in non-critical situations), or received specialized training, AND developed adequate skills for implementation, (and will actually take the time and effort to use them) there is absolutely nothing wrong with DIY work.

What is wrong, is that many (most) boater's attempt to perform work they are not competent at but don't realize it. As a result, they put themselves and others at risk.

The ones who attempt DIY repairs that have not undertaken adequate research, training, and skills development, put themselves and others at risk.

I agree that if every boater cannot be perfectly competent in all systems, they should have at least a rudimentary understanding, so that if something breaks down they can get it going again.

Some can:

1. Fix it, and get it right.
2. Get it working, but not in a safe manner.
3. Can't get it working at all.

The biggest danger is typically number 2.

If scenario 1 occurs, all is well. Perhaps the DIYer did it every bit as good as a pro could. (This happens much more rarely than most DIYers would like to believe.) But if the DIYer does get it right, everyone is safe.

If scenario 3 occurs, the boater makes do until he can get someone (hopefully competent), to make it right. In the long run, everyone is safe.

The risk is that he finds / hires someone less than competent, and enters into scenario 2.

If scenario 2 occurs, the boater thinks it is OK, but in fact, they may have introduced any number of issues that are an equal or greater hazard than the original fault, they just don't know it.

There is a reason that insurance companies and purchasers require marine surveys. In part, it is to protect themselves from the bad work by John DIY.

The opening slide of my Marine Electrical Seminar declares that despite attending the seminar, the participant is not adequately trained to perform safe marine electrical work. (That typically takes years, of a lot more than just reading or sitting and listening.)

Next, I ask...

"Who does their own electrical repairs and improvements?"

(About 50% of hands go up.)

Then I ask, "Of those, who believes it was done properly?"

(All the hands stay up.)

Then I ask, "Who is so sure of that, they will invite me aboard to perform an electrical inspection, free if it's safe, $200 if I find one electrical safety issue?"

(All the hands go down.)

After the seminar, when I've shown several images of tragic boat fires, and gone through many of the electrical safety issues I encounter way too frequently, 2 or 3 come up and ask me to do a $200 inspection.

They know (now) that they have (and I am going to find) electrical safety issues on their boat.

I don't make anything on the inspection by the way, it consumes way more billable hours to conduct the inspection, prepare the report, and engage with the customer, for the $200 to cover.

I do it because:
a) It enables me to give back to the boating community I rely on for my livelihood.
b) It may lead to customer relationship development and more profitable work in the future.

The reason I can do this, and stay in business, is because in my experience to date, about 90% of all boats on the water today have unsafe electrical issues, and about 50% of owner DIY work, is absolutely atrocious.

If asked, very few will say, "The wiring I performed is all wrong". They simply don't know. (Only the smart ones will admit that they didn't know what they were doing and it is most likely wrong.)

To think that a boater, who has queried a forum, read a book (or 3), and/or watched a youtube video (of unknown integrity) and played with some wiring for an hour or so, is more knowledgeable and skilled than someone that has devoted countless years to initial and continuing education, and practical skills development, is well, naïve at best.

Within this forum I have seen several people post, "Well, it isn't rocket science."

In fact, it is a science, and by and large pretty similar to that used on rockets. And the practical application is the craft.

I have only seen a handful of DIYers, that I would consider to be a skilled craftsman at marine electrical system work.

I am sure there are many more that I haven't met yet, and perhaps several in this thread.

But I have seen hundreds, and can count the good ones on one hand.

That tells me something.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

It's all about what sort of boater/person your are.

If your are a tech/mech type, you should be able to handle most problems on your boat. (electrical, electronic, computer, mechanical, structural, etc)

My systems are relatively simple like the OP's, but I have the background for the complex as well

You have to know your limitations for sure.

At the same time though, this is the cruiser's forum.

Or you going to cruise close near by your Marine Repair Tech's location or are you going to cruise wherever you desire and if you have a problem fix it or rig something

Please tell me what you do for a living?

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by thomm225

I stopped (heaved too) mid bay recently to troubleshoot an electrical problem where my autopilot and radio were intermittently turning on and off.

I missed a couple radio calls from a war ship and misunderstood his direction. At that point after he passed I immediately heaved too and troubleshot the problem.

It was a bad battery. I removed it and came in on autopilot with VHF on solar and one battery

And here is exactly what I am talking about...

If you were competent in marine electrical systems, you would have:

a) Tested the batteries, known their proximity to end of life, and replaced them before they catastrophically failed.

b) Realized the shortcoming of your electrical system and provided for redundancy and easy isolation in advance, so that a simple battery failure would not have left you floundering in danger.

So in the scenario you posted (and thanks for sharing that), you were proud of your accomplishment, and I understand that, but in fact, it is your lack of electrical system competence that put you in the perilous situation in the first place, and you don't (or at least didn't) know that.

I am not trying to make you feel bad, and I am sorry for singling you out, but you are like so many others in the boating community.

You don't know, and you don't know that you don't know, but you think you do know.

Until you know you don't know what you think you know, you and others around you are not safe.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Please tell me what you do for a living?

Contract Manager.

We maintain computer, electronic, visual, mechanical (turbo prop engines), and hydraulic systems.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

And here is exactly what I am talking about...

If you were competent in marine electrical systems, you would have:

a) Tested the batteries, known their proximity to end of life, and replaced them before they catastrophically failed.

b) Realized the shortcoming of your electrical system and provided for redundancy and easy isolation in advance, so that a simple battery failure would not have left you floundering in danger.

So in the scenario you posted (and thanks for sharing that), you were proud of your accomplishment, and I understand that, but in fact, it is your lack of electrical system competence that put you in the perilous situation in the first place, and you don't (or at least didn't) know that.

I am not trying to make you feel bad, and I am sorry for singling you out, but you are like so many others in the boating community.

You don't know, and you don't know that you don't know, but you think you do know.

Until you know you don't know what you think you know, you and others around you are not safe.

Nice, you aren't making me feel bad.

I wasn't even close to the ship but was pissed my radio and autopilot were on the blink.

Plus it was a really rough day.

I'm an Engineering Electronics Tech also. (with a BA in History) I took that job because there was a $2,500 bonus in it for me. (I had a boat I needed to pay off!! It was a 16' scow with a 1973 65 hp Mercury and trailer)

It was either that or the infantry which also had a $2,500 bonus

To qualify, you had to pass an electronics/electrical test and a math test. I didn't give a crap about electronics/electrical back then so I failed that test and maxed out on the math. They averaged the scores and I passed

I knew my batteries were low because the fan had been stopping over night for a month or so before.

The solar used to charge the batteries enough during the day for the fan to run all night.

Not a big deal. I'll fix when I need to which is what I did.

It wasn't a problem because if all else failed I'd have turned everything off and simply sailed in!!

My last four sailboats were beach cats with no power, no autopilot, no anchor, no gps, or lights and I did multiple 100 mile races on them. This along the Gulf Coast

[Captain Bill]

It would seem to me that the diagram is terribly incomplete. Unless this CAL27 is outboard powered by a rope start motor there is a whole lot missing. If it has any type of inboard there is no starter circuit and there is no provision for charging the batteries from the engine alternator. My guess is that this schematic is probably pretty close to useless and the OP is actually going to have to look and see what he's actually got on the boat. I personally have never seen a 27 foot sailboat with anything but DC lighting. I think it is fairly safe to say to the OP that he has 12 volt lights. If he has a battery charger, many will not start charging if there is not a minimum amount of voltage present. It would seem that all evidence would at a minimum point to dead batteries which have probably been that way for a while and not recoverable and need to be replaced. Since this diagram doesn't show an engine start circuit and charging system should we assume they don't exist. Is there a separate start battery? Is there an engine? If so, what kind?

Sometimes I find it amazing that anyone managed to survive on boat more than a week old because none of them were wired to the latest ABYC standards, death traps all. Certainly any one that hasn't been completely rewired to ABYC standards in the last 6 months has killed every person that has stepped aboard. If I reworked my boat to ABYC standards every time they came out with a new one it would never get out of the boat yard.

[rwidman]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Contract Manager.

We maintain computer, electronic, mechanical (turbo prop engines), and hydraulic systems.

Do you think someone with no experience in your field could step in and do your job after reading a book or asking a few questions on a web forum?

I expect your answer would be "no". You probably spent years to get to where you can do what you do and you would probably feel insulted if someone were to suggest otherwise.

The average person without an electrical background can't just ask a couple questions on a web forum and start troubleshooting and repairing boat electrical problems and suggesting that they can is a disservice to them.

Please think about this.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by rwidman

Do you think someone with no experience in your field could step in and do your job after reading a book or asking a few questions on a web forum?

I expect your answer would be "no". You probably spent years to get to where you can do what you do and you would probably feel insulted if someone were to suggest otherwise.

The average person without an electrical background can't just ask a couple questions on a web forum and start troubleshooting and repairing boat electrical problems and suggesting that they can is a disservice to them.

Please think about this.

He said he had knowledge of electrical systems. (just not boats)

I'm around educated and backyard (self taught) mech/techs all the time so maybe i'm a bit isolated.

We have high school grads doing complex electronics and computer maintenance. Some are just hardwired for it

Hopefully a grown (ass) man will know his limitations

Besides he didn't say he was going to cross an ocean just launch the boat.

Haven't you ever shorted your car battery out with a wrench?

Hopefully he would know not to venture out too far on his boat until he knows things are working somewhat correctly

[ramblinrod]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Besides he didn't say he was going to cross an ocean just launch the boat.

On the hard, in the slip, a mile off shore, or a 1000, the integrity of the vessel electrical system is critical to safety.

Connecting power before properly assessing the wiring of an old abandoned boat is very bad practice.

It would be like finding an old abandoned car, putting fresh fuel in, and starting it, before checking to see if there was any oil in it.

In all cases, it is always smart to verify the device you are about to supply high amounts of energy to, can safely accept it, because if it can't, really bad things tend to happen.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by ramblinrod

On the hard, in the slip, a mile off shore, or a 1000, the integrity of the vessel electrical system is critical to safety.

Connecting power before properly assessing the wiring of an old abandoned boat is very bad practice.

It would be like finding an old abandoned car, putting fresh fuel in, and starting it, before checking to see if there was any oil in it.

In all cases, it is always smart to verify the device you are about to supply high amounts of energy to, can safely accept it, because if it can't, really bad things tend to happen.

Yes, it's definitely best to check each and every device but it's still up to the individual. Besides on an old boat, you almost need to rewire the thing to be absolutely sure the wiring isn't frayed in places for example that could cause a short etc

On boats like the OP's and my boat we are talking basic systems like lights, bilge pump, GPS Units, Depth, etc. (I have since added solar, controller, inverter, etc) On mine these are all fused but the batteries to the main switch are not .........yet. I have no AC Shore Power Receptacle either. That's an extra system the OP will have to check but it should be okay while he's sailing

My boat was on the hard when I bought it (for $2,000) and had been for 5 years. I believe the boatyard wanted $85.00/HR to go over the boat but I decided to do it all myself and figured it was best to do it while the boat was sitting on the hard.

I had the electrical systems running for a month or so each time I was at the boat as I redid the bottom and prepared the boat for launch. You can even see in the attached photo I had the lights on. This from 2011 at the place of purchase

If you check the wiring diagram on his Cal 27 is a pretty straight forward simple system

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j...20DxXsP7CicC6Q

[boatpoker]

Originally Posted by thomm225

He said he had knowledge of electrical systems. (just not boats)

His questions suggest otherwise.