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**a64pilot** · 06-01-2018, 16:39

Not to save money so much as to reduce complexity.
Now if you have only one house bank, then yeah, I can see the need for a separate start.
However I have seen boats with two House banks, a separate start and a generator battery and maybe another bank for the windlass. I don’t understand why the need for all that complexity, with Eco chargers etc. When I installed my generator, it was recommended to have its own start battery, but why?
I just have two banks, one 440 AH one 220 AH, but leave then ganged together as one with the 1,2,all switch in all. Either can start the main engine or the generator depending on bank switch position.

john61ct · 06-01-2018, 19:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

7 years is a good life for a battery IMHO. As far as a lithium battery is concerned, I don't want even one of those bombs on my boat, much less a whole bank of them.

You are mistakenly conflating LFP / LiFePO4, which has no more fire risk than lead banks, with the other lithium chemistry types that do have thermal runaway issues.

LFP banks are expensive but not dangerous.

daletournier · 07-01-2018, 05:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct

You are mistakenly conflating LFP / LiFePO4, which has no more fire risk than lead banks, with the other lithium chemistry types that do have thermal runaway issues.

LFP banks are expensive but not dangerous.

Lithium Cobalt seem to have potential problems.

Talking little lithium jump start batteries I have a little Projecta IS900E. Only read yesterday that they have recalled them as there's been 5 cases where overheating has taken place, but 3 have ignited after the battery was used to jump start a car.

I believe these are Lithium Cobalt.

BlackHeron · 07-01-2018, 09:07

What are you going to do with a lithium battery in thermal runaway? Dump it overboard? That's assuming you are there onboard to do something about it in the first place. Lithium batteries are one of the reasons why I don't even want to stay at a marina any more.

Sure, the folks who make these batteries and "green" vehicles are huge donors to political campaigns these days so the regulatory agencies look the other way with all the issues.

Still. I like being moored out further away from the bombs all parked like cordwood.

**a64pilot** · 07-01-2018, 09:21

All batteries can suffer from thermal runaway, it’s not just a Lithium thing.
It’s an enormous amount of energy contained in a small box thing.
However experience has shown that while there are some very serious issues with some Lithium chemistries, that does not carry over to all chemistries, some are very safe, just lower energy density.
If there is an issue, it’s more likely with DIY electrical charging systems than it is with the batteries themselves.

Funny thing is, I feel sure that in today’s Society, you would never be able to build a gasoline powered automobile if there hadn’t already been one.
Think about it, a 20+ gl tank, where 1/4 cup equals a stick of dynamite traveling down the highway at speeds exceeding a mile a minute? Complete insanity I tell you.

**newhaul** · 07-01-2018, 10:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

What are you going to do with a lithium battery in thermal runaway? Dump it overboard? That's assuming you are there onboard to do something about it in the first place. Lithium batteries are one of the reasons why I don't even want to stay at a marina any more.

Sure, the folks who make these batteries and "green" vehicles are huge donors to political campaigns these days so the regulatory agencies look the other way with all the issues.

Still. I like being moored out further away from the bombs all parked like cordwood.

the fire was in 2014 at shelter bay marina they never released the exact cause to my knowledge. More likely a fuel related explosion that started this fire and not thermal runaway of anything.

sailorboy1 · 07-01-2018, 10:23

john61ct · 07-01-2018, 10:52

Again, out of all the dozens of very different chemistry types under the "lithium" catch-all category

LiFePO4 do not have a thermal runaway problem.

LFP is the only one in the process of developing ABYC standards for use as House banks on boats to keep insurance companies happy.

Don't get them mixed up with all the other types in the news, fear-mongering from ignorance helps no one.

And yes if your PC or smartphone explodes on you, tossing it overboard is fine, may not be green but...

DumnMad · 07-01-2018, 13:45

For those who don't know what a jump starter can do;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FAzOhGFcIJc

Powerall apparently meets US safety standards - I don't know about the rest.

sailorboy1 · 15-01-2018, 11:32

It was less than $100 to replace the battery. If everything was this cheap on the boat life would real great.

BlackHeron · 15-01-2018, 16:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct

And yes if your PC or smartphone explodes on you, tossing it overboard is fine, may not be green but...

A lot greener than burning your plastic boat down around you and spilling a bunch of fuel and other toxins into the air and sea.

**newhaul** · 15-01-2018, 16:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

A lot greener than burning your plastic boat down around you and spilling a bunch of fuel and other toxins into the air and sea.

better to not over charge the phones. Then you don't get the issues.

BlackHeron · 16-01-2018, 10:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by newhaul

better to not over charge the phones. Then you don't get the issues.

Or drop/step on them. When a lithium battery shorts out inside in just the right way they go into thermal overload. It's like a tiny fuel tank inside starting on fire. All that energy has to go somewhere.

The odds of a cell phone battery going up are very remote. But it CAN happen, and not just to people who "overcharge" their phones. Best to know what to do if it should happen to you.

**newhaul** · 16-01-2018, 11:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

What are you going to do with a lithium battery in thermal runaway? Dump it overboard? That's assuming you are there onboard to do something about it in the first place. Lithium batteries are one of the reasons why I don't even want to stay at a marina any more.

Sure, the folks who make these batteries and "green" vehicles are huge donors to political campaigns these days so the regulatory agencies look the other way with all the issues.

Still. I like being moored out further away from the bombs all parked like cordwood.

got the cause of the fire you implied was due to Lipo batteries. It was in fact a shorted electric space heater.
Not batteries or fuel caused. ( got this info from a friend that was in the marina at the time) thankfully his boat was not involved)

john61ct · 16-01-2018, 11:36

LiPo batteries aren't used for marine House banks anyway, for the exact reason they any many other "lithium" chemistries are at risk of thermal runaway.

LFP (LiFePO4) are not at such risk, and are increasingly used on boats, very successfully.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackHeron

I like being moored out further away from the bombs all parked like cordwood.

Pure ignorant fear-mongering.