Orion smart regulating efficiency gain?

[The White Whale]

Upgrading house bank to AGM from flooded lead acid. Options for engine battery is:

1) Upgrade to AGM, keep everything else the same.
2) Keep current battery, wire alternator (60a Hitachi stupid internally regulated) to engine battery only, charge house bank smartly with engine battery through Victron Orion-Tr DC-DC Converter.

Question is, is the efficiency gain of smartly regulating the alternator output worth the added complexity of having two different battery types? I read that there is a 10% loss of any current passing through the Orion - does anyone have an idea of how much I might gain from smart regulating?

Thanks!

[smac999]

If you use a 30a dc to dc from a 60a alt you lose 30a…. So no it’s not more efficient.

Just stick an acr between then. It’ll be fine. .

[The White Whale]

Originally Posted by smac999

If you use a 30a dc to dc from a 60a alt you lose 30a…. So no it’s not more efficient.

Just stick an acr between then. It’ll be fine. .

Thank you, I see your point. I guess it depends on the actual output of the alternator rather than the max of 60a. Assuming that this drops to 30a or below or i wire 2 orions in parallel and the bottleneck therefore is gone, would there be a sizeable efficiency gain? I guess there must be a reason why so many recommend this type of dual battery setup. :-)

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by The White Whale

Thank you, I see your point. I guess it depends on the actual output of the alternator rather than the max of 60a. Assuming that this drops to 30a or below or i wire 2 orions in parallel and the bottleneck therefore is gone, would there be a sizeable efficiency gain? I guess there must be a reason why so many recommend this type of dual battery setup. :-)

If you don’t have an external regulator for your alternator then I recommend the Smart Orion. Your 60A alternator will be toasty enough with the start battery plus 30A from the Orion, don’t put two in.

The nice thing with the Orion is that you are ready for other chemistry as house battery, you only have to change the setup in the Orion.

You’ll want the non isolated 12/12-30: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...60-400W-EN.pdf

It is 87% efficient so you lose 13% in heat. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Alternatively you could consider a battery isolator like the ArgoFET or an automatic relay but this locks you into the lead acid chemistry plus you risk overcharging the house bank from an alternator with internal regulator.

[The White Whale]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

If you don’t have an external regulator for your alternator then I recommend the Smart Orion. Your 60A alternator will be toasty enough with the start battery plus 30A from the Orion, don’t put two in.

The nice thing with the Orion is that you are ready for other chemistry as house battery, you only have to change the setup in the Orion.

You’ll want the non isolated 12/12-30: https://www.victronenergy.com/upload...60-400W-EN.pdf

It is 87% efficient so you lose 13% in heat. I wouldn’t worry about it.

Alternatively you could consider a battery isolator like the ArgoFET or an automatic relay but this locks you into the lead acid chemistry plus you risk overcharging the house bank from an alternator with internal regulator.

Thank you for your feedback. I completely agree with the pros of having the Orion. I'm only concerned what type of charge performance i can expect from the alternator with the Orion in the loop. If there is little to no gain (or indeed negative) I'm not sure it's worth it as i don't plan to upgrade the house bank chemistry beyond AGM.

Btw. the alternator is currently connected to both engine and house banks through an isolator so i would be able to simply upgrade the house bank to AGM and keep everything else the same. The alternator charges at 14v so it will slightly undercharge the house bank which is ok given that I'm adding solar too. A concern is if I risk overheating the alternator without the Orion as im planning to double to house bank capacity to 400ah but from what i understand the internal Hitachi regulator is very aggressive in reducing amp output to keep heat down.

Happy to hear your take on any of this. :-)

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by The White Whale

Thank you for your feedback. I completely agree with the pros of having the Orion. I'm only concerned what type of charge performance i can expect from the alternator with the Orion in the loop. If there is little to no gain (or indeed negative) I'm not sure it's worth it as i don't plan to upgrade the house bank chemistry beyond AGM.

Btw. the alternator is currently connected to both engine and house banks through an isolator so i would be able to simply upgrade the house bank to AGM and keep everything else the same. The alternator charges at 14v so it will slightly undercharge the house bank which is ok given that I'm adding solar too. A concern is if I risk overheating the alternator without the Orion as im planning to double to house bank capacity to 400ah but from what i understand the internal Hitachi regulator is very aggressive in reducing amp output to keep heat down.

Happy to hear your take on any of this. :-)

I didn’t know you already had an isolator. I am a fan of using what you have and it will work just fine. Keep an eye kn alternator temperature but also on possible overcharging of the house batteries when motoring for long durations.

[CaptainRivet]

Hitachi 60A makes more then 14V, it does 14,6V unless you already modified it.
AGM is the worst and dangerous of all lead, tossed twice overboard and ripped one out of my BMW at a Highway gas Station before car started burning.
They are very intolerant to charging hickups eg getting a bit too much volts and they run dry, do you try to charge them they get a thermal runaway, badly gas out and eventually start a fire…never ever AGM on a boat I own.
If lead then gel battery or eg optimas.
Cheap and good a commercial Hybrid lead starter and service batteries for cooling trucks, I had the flamm ehd powercube 140AH 4x in my old ketch, you can discharge to 50% and you can refill water, no lead is ever maintenance free.

Keep it simple and use an argofet, voltage drop smal and the alternator cannot overcharge due to a fla is present too plus voltage drop.

I would go Lithium….4x304AH EVE cells are 500Euro plus 200 for a Jdk bms is much cheaper then AGM and has a much higher charge acceptance. In this case an Orion DC2DC that charges LFP from lead starter
That’s 260AH usable capacity…

[smac999]

Originally Posted by The White Whale

I guess there must be a reason why so many recommend this type of dual battery setup. :-)

it is one of the better and easier ways of charging a lithuim battery bank from a flooded or agm. for flooded or agm it is not needed. either will charge fine around 14.4v. and an acr is the simplest way of doing it.

[smac999]

Originally Posted by The White Whale

Btw. the alternator is currently connected to both engine and house banks through an isolator

if it's an old diode style (bunch of heat sinks) upgrade it to an argofet or similar low loss one. if you already have a low loss one just leave everything as is. it will be fine