Possible GFI problem with Honda 2000i generator

[mlibkind]

I recently installed a Cruise RO watermaker. The 30 gph unit uses a 12 VDC boost pump and a 110 VAC high pressure pump. I use a Honda 2000i Companion generator to supply the AC voltage. Note that the "Companion" model is the same as the non-Companion model but it comes with a 30 amp socket that makes it simple to connect to my boat's shore power receptacle.

After installation I went through the initial startup process. All went fine until I turned on the HP pump. The switch light blinked on and then went off and the motor did not start.

After that I attempted the normal startup procedure with the same result.

I inspected the electrical system and it looked to be correctly wired. I tried the system a number of additional times over two days with the same result.

Today, after a bunch of corresponding with Rich Boren of Cruise RO, I did the following:

1. Started the watermaker using shore power. Worked fine.

2. Started the watermaker using my 2000w inverter while running my diesel engine. Worked fine.

3. Started the watermaker using my Honda 2000i Companion generator attached to my boat's shore power receptacle. It worked fine, BUT when I turned on the HP pump the switch light flickered on and then off (very fast) before going on steady. This did not happen with the other power sources.

I have no idea why it worked this time and not in the past. The future will tell if it will work consistently now.

I wrote Rich Boren at Cruise RO and he said that the problem may be in the GFI circuitry in the Honda generator. I tried searching on line for this type of problem with no luck. I'm hoping that one of you can help me.

1. Have you ever seen this problem before?

2. Do you know of a fix if I continue to have the problem I originally had?

Thank you for any help you can give.

Marcus
s/v Carpe Ventum
2011 Elan Impression 444

[smac999]

I doubt a gen with a 30a outlet has any GFI. I don't think the 15a ones do either.

the gen is probably too small to handle the start up of the system. what is the running AC draw on the water maker? the peak startup will be higher.

make sure all other AC is off. (battery charger, etc) when you try again.

[mlibkind]

I forgot to add in the above message that I'm totally pleased with the Cruise RO watermaker. The problem I'm having is with the Honda generator, not the watermaker.

After struggling with a European watermaker that came with the boat and was difficult to use because the system was not well designed, I'm ecstatic with the 30 gph Cruise RO. It really puts out 30 gph here in the Abaco. It is easy to start and easy to flush. I'm often sailing with no source of water for two or three weeks and this watermaker is going to make my life much easier. Best of all, if I'm motoring my 2000w inverter can run the high pressure pump.

I bought this watermaker because two skippers that I met last season highly recommended it.

As an aside, having the Honda generator came in handy one night because we had a week of poor sun and little wind, and my batteries were getting to the point where I was afraid that they could be damaged. In 5 minutes the generator was up and running, and charging my batteries.

Marcus

[a64pilot]

I don’t think the genset has a GFI either.
However I do think it’s a generator problem based on the watermaker works fine with two other sources of AC power. Most likely rules out the watermaker as being the problem.
Do you have the generator running high RPM, Eco switch off?
Try hitting the genny with other hard loads, like turning on a hair drier, coffee maker, toaster, whatever high amp device you have.
Finally, is there someone else around with another Companion model you can try?

[S/V Illusion]

Typically, the grid and neutral are common (shorted) in inverter type generators such as the Honda model you have. Consequently, GFIs don't work properly as they 'see' a fault where none actually exists. If I understand your problem correctly, nothing is actually wrong

[JayH]

I have run my CruiseRO 30gph watermaker from a Honda 2000 (the normal model, not Companion). I also have a 110v boost pump. I only did it once as a test, to make sure I could do it, but it worked fine. I plugged the watermaker directly into the generator.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by mlibkind

I recently installed a Cruise RO watermaker. The 30 gph unit uses a 12 VDC boost pump and a 110 VAC high pressure pump. I use a Honda 2000i Companion generator to supply the AC voltage. Note that the "Companion" model is the same as the non-Companion model but it comes with a 30 amp socket that makes it simple to connect to my boat's shore power receptacle.

After installation I went through the initial startup process. All went fine until I turned on the HP pump. The switch light blinked on and then went off and the motor did not start.

I believe that the pump for these is driven by a 3/4 HP capacitor-start motor. Or maybe 1 HP, the web site is unclear. You can look up the starting (locked rotor) current by looking at the "Code" letter on the nameplate then using this chart, and multiplying by the HP rating:

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/l...ode-d_917.html

Codes of J, K, and L are common. That would give you a starting KVA of about 6-8, that is, 6000-8000 watts.

That's more than a 2000 watt generator can deliver. Sometimes you might get away with it particularly if the high-pressure output of the pump has been bled so it can start without a load.

Honda doesn't specify a motor starting capability for their inverter generators.

3. Started the watermaker using my Honda 2000i Companion generator attached to my boat's shore power receptacle. It worked fine, BUT when I turned on the HP pump the switch light flickered on and then off (very fast) before going on steady. This did not happen with the other power sources.

I have no idea why it worked this time and not in the past. The future will tell if it will work consistently now.

Probably won't. Matter of luck, where the shaft stopped exactly and how much pressure is in the RO system.

I wrote Rich Boren at Cruise RO and he said that the problem may be in the GFI circuitry in the Honda generator.

That is a bunch of hooey. As pointed out upthread, the EU2000i companion doesn't have a GFI.

I would suggest starting the motor with the brine line depressurized. Either trip the relief valve, if possible, or add a valve to manually drain the line overboard. No guarantees, but that's the easiest fix.

You could also try the next larger size starting capacitor in the motor. It may adversely affect long-term motor life, but then again it might give you just enough breathing room for your setup to work.

Failing that, you'll have to run two generators in parallel, or a larger one, or a smaller HP pump, all of which would be reasonable choices.

Or you can run the RO off the inverter and just use the EU2000i to drive a battery charger.

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Typically, the grid and neutral are common (shorted) in inverter type generators such as the Honda model you have.

Maybe. The EU2000i does not. It has a floating neutral.

[senormechanico]

Run a low value (100 ohm resistor or a small size piece of wire) from the neutral socket side of the output to the ground lead.
I did that with my Honda 55OO inverter genset to satisfy my home's emergency system.

There is virtually no current through the "hack".

[CaptNemoO2]

This might be a silly question because it's an obvious question, but I'll ask anyways... Do you have a battery charger, water heater or other AC devices on when you're attempting this?

[S/V Alchemy]

I suspect your pump is calling for more amperage than the Honda can supply on the AC side. My 2000 watt inverter can't kick off the March pump in my A/C circuit because it calls for 17 amps at 115VAC, if only momentarily, despite the huge house bank and oversized cabling I have. To do so, I would have to have the sort of "soft-starter" Dometic makes (basically as I understand it, it's a glorified capacitor) to get the brief shot of amps the Honda likely cannot make. I know when I use a 10 amp circular saw with my Honda, hitting a knot in wood can cause it to trip. They are great units, but they have, in my experience, fairly hard limits; this may be one of them.

[WayForward]

I also have the Honda generators. I actually have both the 2000 and the 2000i companion. I use this to get to 30 amp service. When we do not need 30 amps, I will use only one generator at a time.
I have found that I am not able to connect the 2000i companion to the boat directly by itself. My electrical panel gives an error message with regard to phase. I can run the 2000 no problem by itself. If I want to only run the companion generator I still need to connect both to the boat using the cable between the generators that ties them together and allows them to work together. The 2000i works fine on any appliance when connected directly.
So my belief is that there is something in the circuitry of the 2000i (companion) that does not allow it to be connected directly to the boat using the shore power plug. I believe it must have something to do with how they can work together when 30 amps is desired.
Hope this helps.

[sailorchic34]

The honda 2000 genny does not have GFI. To start a large motor, and 3/4 or 1 hp would be large for the 2000, have the eco switch off. It should just be able to do it in a perfect world.

Motor's are tricky as they have very high inrush current at start and a power correction factor that does not help either.

While officially one hp is equal to ~750 watts, the power correction factor (causes by field slip/ efficiency) will many times boost this to near 1000 watts. With double that for inrush it's right at the very edge of what a Honda 2000 can do.

I always assume 1000 watts per hp for small motors (<25 hp). You must always factor peak inrush current when sizing a generator to start a motor. BTW EE's will sometimes get this wrong too. Burning up a 1.5 Mw genny is a pain.

Using a short cable to the hp pump may help as voltage loss in a shore cable is not your friend. It could be a slightly bad shore cable too with higher resistance. Not an issue on shore power but with a honda it can be a killer.

[captstu]

I had a similar problem when trying to run 60 Hz appliance in a 50 Hz country. The solution is the same.

Connect your Honda generator to a fairly large and expensive automobile style battery charger. Turn it on, run your water maker on the inverter, and everything is golden.

I disconnected the green wire to the battery charger so there would be only one ground for the GFI to figure out.

The inverter handle to start loading easily, the batteries never realize really saw any load and the extra cost was minuscule.

[travellerw]

Ok.. Do I understand this correctly...
1. When you first tried on the Honda 2000 it would not start the watermaker
2. You got the watermaker started on the shore power and your inverter
3. The generator now will start the watermaker?
Is that correct?

If so, I suspect that you just needed to overcome the new "stickiness" of the components. Kind of like breaking in an engine. The HP pump was probably VERY tight from the factory and needed a few minutes to break in. Now that, that has happened the Honda can start it.

We have a Rainman (very close to the CruiseRO) and the red light on our Honda 2000 will occasionally give a quick flash when we start our unit! However, once everything is running and pressures are stable, we still have extra capacity. At that point we turn on a 20A battery charger to use the extra capacity in the Honda!