Purchasing advice for batteries and charger/inverter

[Vasco]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

Why do they make 200 amp alternators then? I am guessing the 200ah day all depends on what you are doing in a day. I am planning to to able to run my refrigerator most of the time, two laptop computers, VHF radios, coffee pot ( I am a two pot a day guy) charging cell phones, tablets, running stereo, anchor lights, navigational equipment, AC as needed, TV for evening entertainment, charging cameras, flashlights and so on.

They make 200 amp alternators for large engines with serpentine or double belts. You might have the original Volvo or a 3 cylinder Yanmar in your boat and it will not support a 180 amp alternator.

I think you should take sailorboy's advice and go cruising before you spend a ton of dough on what you won't need and what won't work.

It's more sensible to change all your lighting to led's and forget air conditioning. Ask yourself where you're going to go cruising. You only need ac if you're sitting in a marina in FL in the summer.

You can run a fridge all day and have your two pots of coffee for a lot less than 200 ah a day.

Take some time and read old threads on the subject.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by sogin

If you have the funds, I wonder if adding a fuel cell might be a good solution for keeping AGMs happy under a scenario that involves heavy usage. Some like a Hydromax by hydrovane might be of interest but they are expensive. the cost to run is supposedly around $20 / 100 amp hours. Not sure how that would work out for toppling off batteries that are already bulk charged. The down side is the need to provide distilled water as well as the fuel cartridges. At least they are quiet and require little or no maintenance.

Fuel cells can be a good idea. They are automatic, quiet, and can make sense economically. The above is very wrong on $/AH though. The Efoy which I am familiar with and have installed will give you just under 1000 AH per fuel container, which costs about $90 here in Canada, probably less in the US.
EFOY COMFORT-fuel cells - environmentally friendly and quiet | EFOY

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by Vasco

They make 200 amp alternators for large engines with serpentine or double belts. You might have the original Volvo or a 3 cylinder Yanmar in your boat and it will not support a 180 amp alternator.

I think you should take sailorboy's advice and go cruising before you spend a ton of dough on what you won't need and what won't work.

It's more sensible to change all your lighting to led's and forget air conditioning. Ask yourself where you're going to go cruising. You only need ac if you're sitting in a marina in FL in the summer.

You can run a fridge all day and have your two pots of coffee for a lot less than 200 ah a day.

Take some time and read old threads on the subject.

As I replied to Sailorboy, that was my original intention. Now I am in a position of having to make certain upgrades, and I don't want to spend money making minimum replacements. I would prefer to start the system that down the road that I can expand as my needs change. My current system offers little to no storage and no recharging to speak of. I am not going to do all of the things we are discussing. Just want a game plan so I know I am headed in the right direction.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

Those Firefly batteries seem like a great thing, if they can live up to their hype. I like the idea of Life-po but can't see them being worth that kind of investment. My only dislike of FLA batteries is the weight, size, and maintenance. I would consider the Firefly's, but there seems to be a lot of hating going on that they are a scam. I do not currently have a generator on my boat, it is wired and plumbed for it, but no generator onboard yet. If I thought I would be able to not do a generator, I would be than willing to not spend that money I am just trying to be honest with myself about what it will take to make my extended cruising comfortable.

Firefly, if you get good ones are by all reports excellent. Their quality control leaves a lot to be desired though according to Nigel Calder. And they are expensive.

Any other AGM battery needs to be fully charged as often as possible. Your planned 200 watts of solar will only act as a maintainer to a battery bank the size you are thinking of, especially with your estimated daily usage - which I also think is incorrect. That leaves engine running or generator for upwards of 6 hours every second or third day. Easy way to make enemies in any anchorage I have been in. Without regular fully charging AGM batteries you will be lucky to get 2 years out of them.

What is your expected daily usage, broken down into loads and time for each?

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Fuel cells can be a good idea. They are automatic, quiet, and can make sense economically. The above is very wrong on $/AH though. The Efoy which I am familiar with and have installed will give you just under 1000 AH per fuel container, which costs about $90 here in Canada, probably less in the US.
EFOY COMFORT-fuel cells - environmentally friendly and quiet | EFOY

The Hydrovane website says thi"COST TO RUN

Hydrofuel and Additive can be purchased through us and shipped anywhere in the world.

A full Fuel tank and a full Additive tank can last for about 24 hours of production and will produce about 300 Amps (amp hours or Ah).

Your cost, including shipping and duty, will be approximately:

$0.20/Ah
$2.00 for 10 Ah
$20 for 100 Ah
Best used as a complement to solar and wind, to take care of the deficiencies. For example, 2.5 hours of run time would produce 30 amps, a cost of about US$6/day."

That would be very expensive.

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

The Hydrovane website says thi"COST TO RUN

Hydrofuel and Additive can be purchased through us and shipped anywhere in the world.

A full Fuel tank and a full Additive tank can last for about 24 hours of production and will produce about 300 Amps (amp hours or Ah).

Your cost, including shipping and duty, will be approximately:

$0.20/Ah
$2.00 for 10 Ah
$20 for 100 Ah
Best used as a complement to solar and wind, to take care of the deficiencies. For example, 2.5 hours of run time would produce 30 amps, a cost of about US$6/day."

That would be very expensive.

Obviously not the one to buy. As I posted the Efoy will give you just under 1000 AH for about $90 Cdn. This is for the M10 fuel cartridge.
EFOY COMFORT-products for self-sufficient power supply | EFOY

You also wouldn't be using the fuel cell for all charging, but it will quietly top up the batteries when necessary if turned on.

Here is the link to the detailed specifications

http://www.efoy-comfort.com/sites/de...Comfort_US.pdf

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by mitiempo

Firefly, if you get good ones are by all reports excellent. Their quality control leaves a lot to be desired though according to Nigel Calder. And they are expensive.

Any other AGM battery needs to be fully charged as often as possible. Your planned 200 watts of solar will only act as a maintainer to a battery bank the size you are thinking of, especially with your estimated daily usage - which I also think is incorrect. That leaves engine running or generator for upwards of 6 hours every second or third day. Easy way to make enemies in any anchorage I have been in. Without regular fully charging AGM batteries you will be lucky to get 2 years out of them.

What is your expected daily usage, broken down into loads and time for each?

These numbers don't include air-con
Watts Amps AmpHrs
DC Loads: 313. 1213. 797.5
AC Loads:1150 9.8 21.0
Days usage per week:7.0
Amp Hrs per day:118.4
Amp Hrs per week:828.9
Recommended battery capacity for days of autonomy (no sun)
DaysAmpHrs
1 200
2 300
3 500
4 600
5 800
6 900
7 1100

[mitiempo]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

These numbers don't include air-con
Watts Amps AmpHrs
DC Loads: 313. 1213. 797.5
AC Loads:1150 9.8 21.0
Days usage per week:7.0
Amp Hrs per day:118.4
Amp Hrs per week:828.9
Recommended battery capacity for days of autonomy (no sun)
DaysAmpHrs
1 200
2 300
3 500
4 600
5 800
6 900
7 1100

What items? Your numbers do not make sense. How did you arrive at them?

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

Thanks, this was my original idea. Then I learned I need a new charger/inverter, I already new the small battery bank would not be enough. So I started thinking, does it make sense to pay $800 for a charger inverter, get smaller solar panels, get a smaller generator, then have to upgrade everything if I decide it's not enough? Buy once and cry once? ... Maybe I should look at a system that would be expanded easily, start with an 400ah battery bank and 1500 watt charger/inverter that can be stacked to a 800ah 2 x 1500 watt charger/inverter.

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

I am guessing the 200ah day all depends on what you are doing in a day. I am planning to to able to run my refrigerator most of the time, two laptop computers, VHF radios, coffee pot ( I am a two pot a day guy) charging cell phones, tablets, running stereo, anchor lights, navigational equipment, AC as needed, TV for evening entertainment, charging cameras, flashlights and so on.

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

As I replied to Sailorboy, that was my original intention. Now I am in a position of having to make certain upgrades, and I don't want to spend money making minimum replacements. I would prefer to start the system that down the road that I can expand as my needs change. My current system offers little to no storage and no recharging to speak of. I am not going to do all of the things we are discussing. Just want a game plan so I know I am headed in the right direction.

Game plans, good. Based on realistic energy requirements, better. Expandable, a bit at a time, nirvana!



Given that your immediate need is just the inverter/charger... buy one, install it, then chill for a while. Given you might go for AGMs eventually, select the charger part of it to be big.

Fridge compressors don't run all the time, even when the fridge is on all day long. Much nav equipment is only necessary when you're underway (there can be exceptions), so not necessarily a constant load. Even electrical consumption with coffee makers can be managed (make the coffee, keep warm in a thermos carafe). And so forth. Once you have a better idea of your real energy budget, you'd know better about how to build out your system.

I see the diesel genset as being a good thing, though, assuming your bank manager will let you have one. (Note how easily I can spend your money.) You probably can't really get away from shorepower for significant periods at anchor without one, given your projected needs and usage. Maybe consider making that the next aqcuisition.

Then just use the boat. Use the genset to charge as neceessary. Get an idea how much genset time that turns out to be. Work out whether additional battery capacity can reduce genset time, with affordable trade-off costs. Work out whether solar/wind sources would be worth your effort and expense.

Example, from our current boat: we could add battery capacity... but we need to run the genset 2x/day to cook... so adding much more battery wouldn't really buy us much. We gradually figured that out from the way we use the boat...

-Chris

[Maine Sail]

You need to start with the math, the actual measured usage math, then build the system from there. A good place to start would be an Ah counter such as the Victron BMV-700. These are under $180.00 and can give you a ton of information for the cost. You would not be buying this for SOC, they are not very accurate for most users for %SOC. You'd be installing it to see -Ah's consumed each 24 hour period and charging performance.. You would ideally install this, wired up correctly, before you move ahead with the rest of the DC system so you have actual data to move forward with on the system design..

I have yet to see more than a few spread-sheets written up/guesstimated at, for daily Ah consumption that line up realistically or even closely to the actual usage. I have seen both grossly over designed systems=$$ and grossly under-designed systems=$$, based on hip-shoot daily Ah capacity spread sheets. Having more accuracy in your daily consumption helps you build a better system.

Even the smallest marine AC system I know of still draws about 35-38A through an inverter. This AC is really much too small for a 37' vessel and is really designed for just a stateroom. Bumping up to a more reasonable size puts you in the 48-50A range when run through an inverter. If the unit is not sized correctly it will run continuously so even a teeny-tiny AC will chew through the usable Ah capacity of a 200Ah bank, without accounting for any other loads on the boat, in about two hours of use. Burning though that Ah capacity in 2 hours, will then require upwards of 6-7+ hours of charging, regardless of charging capacity, to attain 100% SOC again. Each time you don't return to 100% SOC after a discharge your usable AH capacity gets smaller and smaller due to what is known as PSOC walk-down.

I won't even go into Peukert but, if not accounted for, with high-amp items such as AC, your bank capacity will be smaller than you assume. A lead acid bank is only at Ah capacity at 77-80F when discharged at the 20 hour discharge rate. For a 100Ah battery this would be a 5A load at 77-80F and, if healthy, the battery should deliver this 5A load for 20 hours. The 20 hour discharge rate is determined by dividing Ah capacity by 20.

100Ah Battery:

• At a load greater than 5A rating the battery is not going to deliver 100Ah.

• At a load below the 5A rating the battery can deliver slightly more than 100Ah

If you really want AC, you're going to be listening to an internal combustion engine for most of your day or chewing through batteries in short order.

As other have mentioned flooded batteries, with hydro caps, make a lot of sense, especially while you figure the system out. A 450Ah - 460Ah bank of golf cart batteries can be had for about $470.00 - $500.00. A 675Ah bank can be had in the $710.00 range. If you ruing this bank figuring it out, no big deal, it was cheap.

Anyone, who's done a lick of homework, will not buy batteries at West Marine. Their pricing is simply insane. Find a local battery wholesaler who specializes in supplying golf courses and start there.

For example:

The Duracell EGC2 230Ah 6V GC2 (GC2 is a BCI size classification) golf cart battery sold at Sam's Club is a re-stickered DEKA GC-15. Here in Maine they are $117.00 each at my local club. It was actually on-sale, during the month of February, for $92.00 each.

The same exact re-stickered Deka GC-15, at West Marine, labeled as a West Marine 6V 230Ah, is $249.99.

In my opinion the Mastervolt brand of batteries is really unknown quantity, here in the US, in terms of real world cycle life and resistance to PSOC damage. The only customers I have known, who used them, have got, two years and the other three years respectively, of coastal cruising, out of them. Both had DC charging systems set up rather poorly (actually typical of about 85% + of boats) so this can't entirely be blamed on the batteries. Still it was an expensive oops moment for both of them..

The known quality AGM brands, in the marine environment, are Odyssey, Lifeline, Northstar & Firefly. The new Trojan Reliant AGM's are again, unproven. May be good, may not be, we just don't know yet.

The benefit to Firefly is the manufacturer recommended 80% DOD cycling capability and its high sulfation resistance. This means less installed batteries for more usable Ah capacity. It also means less frequency required of 100% SOC recharges. The draw back to Firefly can be availability and shipping.

There are also the East Penn GEL batteries and the Sonnenschein Prevailer GEL's which can be some of the longest lasting lead acid batteries out there. One forum member here completed two circumnavigations on the same GEL bank. Course GEL's do require very accurate charging and do not do well, at all, being over charged.

Again, begin with the real math, not a guesstimated hip shoot.. It is really the optimal method for designing your system..

[SV Bacchus]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

You need to start with the math, the actual measured usage math, then build the system from there. A good place to start would be an Ah counter such as the Victron BMV-700. These are under $180.00 and can give you a ton of information for the cost. You would not be buying this for SOC, they are not very accurate for most users for %SOC. You'd be installing it to see -Ah's consumed each 24 hour period and charging performance.. You would ideally install this, wired up correctly, before you move ahead with the rest of the DC system so you have actual data to move forward with on the system design..

Probably the best advice yet coupled with sailorboy"s and others recommendations to use the boat "as is" to find out what you really need.

Now I'll add my 2 cents FWIW:

I've read in previous threads there really is no such thing as too big a charger. You seem to be stressing over the immediate need for a charger and you don't want to buy small now then replace later with larger. Get a big one now and you're set.

As Mainesail said, forget Worst Marine batts. Better yet, forget most things Worst Marine.

As far as your air con, remember your yacht isn't the Holiday Inn. Using your yacht now, as is, may prove you only need the air con in stifling marinas where you are plugged in anyway. I have friends that needed light blankets last summer in the Bahamas!

The water temps and a nice breeze makes a world of difference.

[john61ct]

Nigel's mention of Firefly's QA issues was a while ago, as were assurances home office was fixing them

I feel buying from the authorized channel will ensure good warranty service / exchange if needed.

More recent reports on this aspect would be appreciated, at $500/100AH

[john61ct]

Running A/C off batteries may be theoretically possible doesn't make trying to set it up in practice any less insane IMO.

But those with Unca Scrooge piles of gold to throw into their bottomless hole in the ocean genearally aren't known for being very sensible.

[Suijin]

I'll add to the chorus; go cruising, learn, observe, and then plan. You're operating in a practical vacuum, relying on a pile of abstract theory. I can guarantee you that if you delay your planning and implementation until after one long term stint on the boat what you end up doing will better suit your needs and probably be less expensive.

This advice applies more broadly than just your power system. Don't go spending money on "stuff you think you'll need". Wait until you've learned from practical experience that you actually need it.

As an aside, 95% of cruising boats with air conditioning run it only when on shore power. The other 5% probably run it for an hour or two a day on the generator to cool/dry the boat down in the evening.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Running A/C off batteries may be theoretically possible doesn't make trying to set it up in practice any less insane IMO.

It is possible, but your still going to have to run a generator to recharge them.
Only reasonable use in my opinion is for the ultra rich to be able to shift generator run times if they wanted to, they could run the AC 24/7 and only run the generator during the day.
I read somewhere that one of the Big J boat replica's can do this, but what does that boat cost?