Purchasing advice for batteries and charger/inverter

[Alberg37yawl]

First let me say thank you for clicking and seeing if you can help.

I am in the process of researching new batteries, and inverter/charger combo. I know my usage plays a large part in what the best setup for me will be. With that being said I want to be on the hook as much as possible. My boat has a refrigerator, air conditioning, LED TV, coffee pot. All lighting is being upgraded to LED. I used a calculator and got a 200ah per day usage from it (not sure how accurate that is). I was looking at the (815-3012 Freedom SW Series 3000 Watt Inverter/Charger) I recently purchased 4 Duracell AGM batteries to hold me off for a while 2 are for house bank, 1 for engine, 1 for windlass) but then learned my charger needs to be replaced. So I am now wondering if I should change over to 6v, stay with 12v or go to 24v. I am willing to buy new better batteries etc and need advise on where to start with upgrading my bank, charger/inverter, as well as a recharging system (I am thinking diesel generator as my boat is wired and plumbed for it already) Thanks for your time and I am looking forward to seeing your responses.

[a64pilot]

Yeah, you threw out a lot there.
If you can get them to fit and dont mind watering, nothing gives you more amps for less money than 6V golf cart batteries, however you just bought batteries so maybe wait until they need replacing.
Forget airconditioning without a generator, theoretically its possible, but you would have to have an aircraft carrier of Solar panels and one huge bank.
Inverter / charger of your own choosing, and generator to a great extent is based on pocketbook, how much room you have, how much weight you can carry and useage, if you intend to run it daily, that is a different generator than a once or twice a week run one.
Then you will get all kinds of opinions, its up to you to decide, and maybe do some searching and reading, must be hundreds of threads on each of your questions

[Vasco]

You sure you use 200 amp hrs a day? I use about 80.

I would stay with flooded 12v batteries and a good solar array. Solar is less than $1 a watt for good quality panels now.

A lot depends on where you intend to cruise. No a/c needed in the Bahamas or Carib.

A diesel generator is just another engine to maintain. And there's not a lot of storage in a Alberg 37 so the space a genny would take would be better used for storage.

Your fridge will be your main power draw.

I would get a 600 ah bank for the house batteries and 540 watts of solar. Your problem will be where to place the panels on a narrow beam boat.

[Steveschr]

Go slow. There's no cookie cutter answer for this. I spent several months researching and reading those posts a64pilot mentioned. Spoke to battery and equipment manufacturers. Made a lot of notes and made the best guesses I could about things like consumption as I didn't have a working boat to take measurements. Weighed the compromises inherent in the choices available. I ended up building a 12v system with 4 6v flooded golf cart batteries, 100A alternator and about 250w of solar. The boat is self sufficient without running the engine even with a poorly insulated fridge. I'm happy cause that was my design goal. Your goal is different and your boat is different so you'll need a different solution.

Lots of great information available. When you get stuck askance question.

Stay with it, you'll figure it out!

Steve

[Pizzazz]

It may be helpful to review your AC needs critically before deciding on the inverter size. I started with a Freedom 1800 watt inverter which was great but had this buzzing noise that I found annoying. Then I got another Freedom inverter, from the Jazz series that is only rated 140 watts. Totally silent. Interestingly, it covers all my needs including the TV, sound system, charging cordless tools, the Dremel!, etc. Modern appliances use very little power. Next, look at the big appliances. Air conditioning (or heating or drying) just does not work from batteries. The washing machine is 100 watts. Hot water comes from the engine. You can get a low power coffee maker as well. So you are left with the microwave. You make the call.

You may still want to have a big inverter but calculate your ac loads first (also think about concurrent usage). Another factor is that the efficiency of an inverter is optimal around 60-70℅ and it really goes down below 15℅. This will impact your calculated battery life.

[ranger58sb]

Originally Posted by Alberg37yawl

I am in the process of researching new batteries, and inverter/charger combo. I know my usage plays a large part in what the best setup for me will be. With that being said I want to be on the hook as much as possible. ... I am willing to buy new better batteries etc and need advise on where to start with upgrading my bank, charger/inverter, as well as a recharging system (I am thinking diesel generator as my boat is wired and plumbed for it already) Thanks for your time and I am looking forward to seeing your responses.

I'd say pin down your projected usage as best you can... and then solidify your plan up front. We'll before you select or buy anything.

AC (aircon) and hot water usually need AC (alternating current), in turn usually best fed by shorepower or genset. Bulk battery charging is often best fed by shorepower or genset and charger(s), while solar can apparently be good for running DC loads and topping off almost-fully-charged battery banks.

Two Duracell (Group 31 12V?) AGMs isn't much, for a house bank, in the grand scheme of things. ~200 Ah? Might be sufficient, or might not, your call. Two pairs of 6V golf cart batteries would give you much more usable capacity (~440 Ah) if you have the space, or even more pairs would be nice in a utopian world. (Usable capacity at any given time is about half -- or less -- of nstalled capapacity.)

But charging will be key, so you'll need to plan that, I think early in your decision process. A diesel genset would be nifty, depending on your wallet... and depending on available space... and depending on access for service. OTOH, if you can't get there from here, that will impact every other decision in your chain.

Were it me, and if my bank account decided to cooperate, believe I'd develop a concept that includes diesel genset, solar (somehow), an inverter/charger (or separate inverter and charger units) for the house bank , a house bank made up of as many 6V golf cart batteries as is practical in your boat (FLA or AGM, depending), plus 12V AGMs for you engine and genset start batteries (probably no charger required for those).

The FLA/AGM decision for house batts would be about whether they're located in living spaces (less off-gassing with AGMs), whether they're easily servicable (FLAs need watering), whether you think you can fully re-charge often enough (AGMs need that), etc.

The AGM decision for start batteries would be about engine and genset alternators being sufficient to charge, and AGMs don't self-discharge much. A simple pair of jumper cables on a diesel boat can solve back-up issues if something about the start batteries inadvertently goes south for a while.

-Chris

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by ranger42c

I'd say pin down your projected usage as best you can... and then solidify your plan up front. We'll before you select or buy anything.

AC (aircon) and hot water usually need AC (alternating current), in turn usually best fed by shorepower or genset. Bulk battery charging is often best fed by shorepower or genset and charger(s), while solar can apparently be good for running DC loads and topping off almost-fully-charged battery banks.

Two Duracell (Group 31 12V?) AGMs isn't much, for a house bank, in the grand scheme of things. ~200 Ah? Might be sufficient, or might not, your call. Two pairs of 6V golf cart batteries would give you much more usable capacity (~440 Ah) if you have the space, or even more pairs would be nice in a utopian world. (Usable capacity at any given time is about half -- or less -- of nstalled capapacity.)

But charging will be key, so you'll need to plan that, I think early in your decision process. A diesel genset would be nifty, depending on your wallet... and depending on available space... and depending on access for service. OTOH, if you can't get there from here, that will impact every other decision in your chain.

Were it me, and if my bank account decided to cooperate, believe I'd develop a concept that includes diesel genset, solar (somehow), an inverter/charger (or separate inverter and charger units) for the house bank , a house bank made up of as many 6V golf cart batteries as is practical in your boat (FLA or AGM, depending), plus 12V AGMs for you engine and genset start batteries (probably no charger required for those).

The FLA/AGM decision for house batts would be about whether they're located in living spaces (less off-gassing with AGMs), whether they're easily servicable (FLAs need watering), whether you think you can fully re-charge often enough (AGMs need that), etc.

The AGM decision for start batteries would be about engine and genset alternators being sufficient to charge, and AGMs don't self-discharge much. A simple pair of jumper cables on a diesel boat can solve back-up issues if something about the start batteries inadvertently goes south for a while.

-Chris

Thanks for the reply. Yes I am aware the two batteries I purchased will not be good enough in the long run. I purchased them because the fit the current bank configuration on the boat, making it an easy plug and play. Until I had new batteries installed I did not know if any of the boats systems worked at all. Now I know everything works accept the current air-con. (I also learned the boat has a brand new watermaker installed I did not even know was in the boat, which will save me about 5k I had planned to spend) Then learned the Heart charger/inverter that is in the boat is really old and should not be trusted. This got me thinking that its a good time to reconfigure the whole system. I am thinking I would like to have about 800ah of of house batteries. I don't like the idea of FLA batteries, so I would go with AGM since I think they offer the best bang for my buck. I am now considering Mastervolt AGM 6 Volt Batteries, as I understand it 6v batteries are more durable than their 12v counterparts. I am thinking 2 or 4 of the Mastervolt AGM 6/400 6-Volt AGM Battery, 400Ah, 875 CCAat about $600 each I think that would get the job done. Any thoughts on this configuration?

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Yeah, you threw out a lot there.
If you can get them to fit and dont mind watering, nothing gives you more amps for less money than 6V golf cart batteries, however you just bought batteries so maybe wait until they need replacing.
Forget airconditioning without a generator, theoretically its possible, but you would have to have an aircraft carrier of Solar panels and one huge bank.
Inverter / charger of your own choosing, and generator to a great extent is based on pocketbook, how much room you have, how much weight you can carry and useage, if you intend to run it daily, that is a different generator than a once or twice a week run one.
Then you will get all kinds of opinions, its up to you to decide, and maybe do some searching and reading, must be hundreds of threads on each of your questions

Thanks for your input. I have read a lot of the threads regarding my needs/wants. I noticed a lot of them are old threads, which is fine if it's for woodworking but not so much for electronics. I know technology changes pretty fast so I was hoping to learn about the latest tech in batteries and chargers. Thanks again

[Sailmonkey]

What don't you like about flooded batteries? Most of us have them.....and for $600 a pop you can replace your battery bank several times with flooded.

Imho 800ah on a 37' Alberg is nuts. What are you running that can't be handled by 400-600ah of capacity? How do you plan to charge 800ah of batteries?

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by Vasco

You sure you use 200 amp hrs a day? I use about 80.

I would stay with flooded 12v batteries and a good solar array. Solar is less than $1 a watt for good quality panels now.

A lot depends on where you intend to cruise. No a/c needed in the Bahamas or Carib.

A diesel generator is just another engine to maintain. And there's not a lot of storage in a Alberg 37 so the space a genny would take would be better used for storage.

Your fridge will be your main power draw.

I would get a 600 ah bank for the house batteries and 540 watts of solar. Your problem will be where to place the panels on a narrow beam boat.

Thanks for your feedback. I am not a fan of FLA batteries, I don't want to maintain anything I don't have too. Solar will be part of my configuration, but I am not a fan of having solar panels hanging off every part of my boat trying to get enough power to charge batteries. I would consider solar more to combat parasitic drain and occasional use. I live in Florida so Air-con is a must have, that pretty much means I will have to have a genset, or some form of high capacity charging system. Any thoughts on high capacity alternators?

[a64pilot]

If you have a generator and plan on using it, no real need for a high capacity alternator, although I'll admit to having one myself, I went with a Mark Grasser alternator because I think it is a quality unit at a significant cost savings over Balmar, Balmar is good, very good, but I think your paying a lot for the white paint and name.
I went with 660 AH of Lifeline AGM batteries myself only because I could not fit 6V GC2 Golf Cart batteries, not without re-building my battery box. Although never having to service them is nice.
Downside is two fold, first they cost way more, and demand to be treated right, don't treat them right and they will reward you with less life than a cheap Walmart battery.
I hope one day when they die to go with Life-Po, but that is a future project.
If you are still determined on AGM, I would go with either Lifeline's or Firefly's.
The Firefly sounds too good to be true, but if it is what they say it is, it will be I think the lead acid battery of the future. If they really pan out, I may re-think Life-Po.

[a64pilot]

On a generator, if you expect to run one nearly every day to run airconditioning, then look real hard at the heavy duty low RPM machines. Northern Lights seem to be a favorite in the cost is no object crowd.
For occasional use maybe a Nexgen, I bought the Nexgen 3.5 KW myself, my hoped use is half a day, one or twice a week to make water, wash clothes etc. When it starts to get hot, I hope to move to cooler climes to avoid the AC thing, but I agree, in June thru September Air conditioning is mandatory for life in Florida, sure you won't die without it probably, but its not pleasant.

[Vasco]

Do some research on AGM's and cruising boats. AGM's like to be fully charged, not an easy thing to do while cruising. I had AGM's once, they lasted two seasons as I was only using the band between 50% and 85%. I found it difficult to get the last 15% in. At that time I was using wind and a Honda EU2000i and a 100 amp charger. You have to run the Honda all day to get the last 15% in.

Flooded batteries are no problem and seem more robust than Gel or AGM's. You just need to carry a gallon of distilled water and check them once in a while. I check them every couple of months or so.

[Alberg37yawl]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

If you have a generator and plan on using it, no real need for a high capacity alternator, although I'll admit to having one myself, I went with a Mark Grasser alternator because I think it is a quality unit at a significant cost savings over Balmar, Balmar is good, very good, but I think your paying a lot for the white paint and name.
I went with 660 AH of Lifeline AGM batteries myself only because I could not fit 6V GC2 Golf Cart batteries, not without re-building my battery box. Although never having to service them is nice.
Downside is two fold, first they cost way more, and demand to be treated right, don't treat them right and they will reward you with less life than a cheap Walmart battery.
I hope one day when they die to go with Life-Po, but that is a future project.
If you are still determined on AGM, I would go with either Lifeline's or Firefly's.
The Firefly sounds too good to be true, but if it is what they say it is, it will be I think the lead acid battery of the future. If they really pan out, I may re-think Life-Po.

Those Firefly batteries seem like a great thing, if they can live up to their hype. I like the idea of Life-po but can't see them being worth that kind of investment. My only dislike of FLA batteries is the weight, size, and maintenance. I would consider the Firefly's, but there seems to be a lot of hating going on that they are a scam. I do not currently have a generator on my boat, it is wired and plumbed for it, but no generator onboard yet. If I thought I would be able to not do a generator, I would be than willing to not spend that money I am just trying to be honest with myself about what it will take to make my extended cruising comfortable.

[Suijin]

I've never understood the concept of a dedicated windlass battery. About the only scenario where I'd consider it is if I bought a boat that already had one in the bow and I was too lazy to rewire it.

My boat had a dedicated windlass battery when I bought it, and even worse it was only charging off shore power. Rewired it into the house bank when I bought new batteries and rewired, increasing my house by 33%. New combiner flows juice first to the house and then to the starter at higher SOC, and I never operate the windlass in any significant way without the engine running.

Alberg, if being on the hook as much as possible means a month or more between connections to shore power you're going to need a means of getting the batteries to float every now and then, which bears on the size of your bank and the amount of auxiliary charging capability you have...or your willingness to run your engine or a generator for hours on end every now and then. If you operate your AGMs between 50-80% charge for weeks on end you're going to shorten their life considerably. So keep that in mind when designing your system.

You need to seriously rationalize your proposed energy usage budget. You're not going to run AC except off a generator, so don't even include that. Your biggest consumers are going to be the fridge, the TV, and a laptop if you have one. Also, your refrigeration energy usage is going to vary significantly depending on where you are, based on ambient temperature.

There are some folks who have very high energy consumption based on what they run on their boats, so I'm not saying 200 ah is unrealistically high, I'm just not confident in your calculation of it.