So… are the starter lead acid, agm,tppl batteries in their final few years?

[Fuss]

Could this be?

no longer much cheaper than other solutions..and the other solutions getting cheaper by the day.

heavy,
sometimes complicated charging regimes,
after 3 years, will it still start your engine reliably for the next 2+ years..
surprisingly finding them swollen and very hot one day, then big emergency removal.
Surely, the writing is on the wall …
Will sailors 2 years from now seriously consider buying for starting…

[donradcliffe]

I can't tell you how many shirts and shorts got holes in them after handling lead acid batteries.

[rslifkin]

I expect lead for starter batteries will eventually go away. It's just a question of when the all-in cost of an alternative, its charging systems, etc. becomes reliably lower. And also when the alternatives have enough in service experience to be widely accepted as simple to use and reliable.

At this point I could ditch my lead start batteries and replace them with something else. But I have no compelling reason to. They last well in my application (6 years and counting for the current AGMs) and they just work. The weight doesn't matter in my application either. Charging setup for the start batteries on my boat is also built with lead in mind, so some alternatives might need changes there.

At this point I avoid flooded lead even though they're cheaper than AGM. Just because they're more of a pain to work with as Don alluded to.

[wholybee]

I'm not sure they are in their final few years. Technically, LFP can replace them, but the characteristics of LFP are not ideal, and it's expensive. I expect a newer chemistry will replace them soon, but I don't think it will be LFP.

Interestingly, a friend of mine recently missed a concert we were going to because his EV would not start. The issue was the 12V FLA battery in the car had died. That is an application I thought would have gone away, since it doesn't even have an ICE. But whoever engineered the car thought it best that the interior electronics and control systems run off a FLA instead of the large Lithium battery. Maybe so the computer, doorlocks, etc. will all still work if you drive until the main battery is dead?

[Tillikum]

Lithium: good for environmental schizophrenia.


Hot and swollen batteries are probably preferable to flames and smoke, unless you're looking for an insurance settlement.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Tillikum

Lithium: good for environmental schizophrenia.


Hot and swollen batteries are probably preferable to flames and smoke, unless you're looking for an insurance settlement.

Not all lithium chemistries are dangerous though. LFP is easily as safe as lead acid, for example. Some other chemistries wouldn't be an option on a boat for safety reasons though.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by wholybee

I'm not sure they are in their final few years. Technically, LFP can replace them, but the characteristics of LFP are not ideal, and it's expensive. I expect a newer chemistry will replace them soon, but I don't think it will be LFP.

Interestingly, a friend of mine recently missed a concert we were going to because his EV would not start. The issue was the 12V FLA battery in the car had died. That is an application I thought would have gone away, since it doesn't even have an ICE. But whoever engineered the car thought it best that the interior electronics and control systems run off a FLA instead of the large Lithium battery. Maybe so the computer, doorlocks, etc. will all still work if you drive until the main battery is dead?

That is exactly why. Plus the safety solenoids which disconnect the main battery can't be controlled by the main battery.

Tesla at least though has moved to lithium ion battery for the 12V system and an utterly tiny one at that. Barely enough to run the system and constantly charged by the high voltage pack.

[SaylorMade]

Originally Posted by Tillikum

Lithium: good for environmental schizophrenia.


Hot and swollen batteries are probably preferable to flames and smoke, unless you're looking for an insurance settlement.

It is crazy that this kind of misinformation still takes place in 2024.

[Kettlewell]

I still use LA for house and start banks. Still the cheapest and simplest system in upfront costs. Simple counts for a lot on a cruising sailboat. Look at all the threads about troubleshooting and repairing charging systems.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Fuss

Surely, the writing is on the wall …
Will sailors 2 years from now seriously consider buying for starting…

I see no reason not to use lead acid for the time being. One decent sized LA to start the engine is all that I need. Whilst I am happy with the hybrid LA-LFP for the house bank, sometimes systems need to be really simple with a KISS approach.

Pete

[dlj]

The ability for lead acid to provide high peak current output for use in starting engines, running windlasses, and bow thrusters will always be there. The current LIFePo batteries don't do as well there. If a new chemistry comes up, then that may replace the LA battery.

Properly run and maintained LA batteries should last 12 to 15 years. The difficulty in the sailing world has been this "properly run and maintained" has been almost impossible to do, up to now. Now with LiFePo batteries, you can create mixed battery systems with the LFP charging the LP batteries allowing them be recharged immediately after use by being recharged by the LFP system. LA batteries like to remain fully charged, LFP batteries actually do better in a partial state of charge. It's a great symbiotic relationship.

So it seems to me that until we come up with a better chemistry for running high peak load use, the LFP chemistry will actually help prolong the LA battery projected utility time frame.

dj

[Spartanacus]

There are LFP's like those on my boat (not for starting) and then there are LFP's that are designed to start engines. My motorcycle - 1300 cc's has two BIG pistons. The LA battery always struggled to start it. My earthX LFP battery made to start engines lights the bike up with great enthusiasm! It's been installed since 2017 and shows zero degradation, it has never been charged with a trickle charger but has been left for months at a time. This is in Florida where the state motto is "death to batteries"

[CarlF]

If you want to use lithium for a starting battery search "Lithium starting battery" for one that has a CCA rating of at least 700 amps. That will easily start a boat diesel. Regular lithium batteries usually have a 200 amp or less maximum. They still cost $150+ but presumably prices will keep dropping.

https://www.amazon.com/TYKOOL-Motorc...6-580d6bb0ee10

[Fuss]

Originally Posted by dlj

The ability for lead acid to provide high peak current output for use in starting engines, running windlasses, and bow thrusters will always be there. The current LIFePo batteries don't do as well there. If a new chemistry comes up, then that may replace the LA battery.

Properly run and maintained LA batteries should last 12 to 15 years. The difficulty in the sailing world has been this "properly run and maintained" has been almost impossible to do, up to now. Now with LiFePo batteries, you can create mixed battery systems with the LFP charging the LP batteries allowing them be recharged immediately after use by being recharged by the LFP system. LA batteries like to remain fully charged, LFP batteries actually do better in a partial state of charge. It's a great symbiotic relationship.

So it seems to me that until we come up with a better chemistry for running high peak load use, the LFP chemistry will actually help prolong the LA battery projected utility time frame.

dj

Well if these lead acid batteries are this good then I wonder why anyone would even consider installing Lifepo4.


They don't do well in starting. This is a fault of the BMS not the Lifepo4. Every Lifepo4 beats lead.


oh dear, oh dear, they can sometimes be the same price as lead.


We must have run out of reasons why lead is superior by now...I don't mean in this thread, I mean in July 2024.

[Nicholson58]

We installed Blue Heron LiFePo house and start banks three years ago. High output starter batteries in parallel with the giant house banks. Westerbeke 115 hp straight six tractor engine. 24 volts, big inrush about 80 amps. No DC DC converter. No diode separation. Easy, identical chemistry and charging. This was a total game changer for us and the end of battery and charging woes.

The only issue has been the reduced mass on the port side gives a couple degrees to starboard.

660 watts solar panels 3x Sanyo 220H over cockpit
350 watts solar rear arch
Tri-Star MPPT 24 volt solar controller 2016
Epever solar charge controller MPPT model Tracer2206AN
246 V 630 AH Blue Heron LiFePo batteries house bank #1, 2022
26 V 105 AH Blue Heron LiFePo dual purpose batteries start bank 2022
Balmar alternator charge controllers, main and generator backup main alternator