Solar Panels 32' Sloop

[misfits]

.and one of the boat with the panels on and the Bimini fabric back in place.

Nice!

[rgleason]

BigdogAndy (andy)

I was just going to upload your two photos, but I see you've don it yourself. Good.
http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2931924

This is a nice simple installation which is similar to what I am considering. I expect your Endeavor 32' is a good deal more robust in the stern than my Ted Hood CCA design. The full boat shot with canvas looks good too.

You probably have more ample cockpit width in the stern with a longer waterline than our boat. I would never be able to have dingy davits. With our CCA design I need to be careful about weight in the stern, in fact, when I add the solar panels I am going to move the 2nd anchor (danforth & rode) 28 lbs to the center of the boat somehow.

So I am considering flexible panels, but first I have to read the post below about that, and I would like to use carbon fiber tubes for the framework off of the stern pushpit. I would have two reasonably light carbon fiber tube frames and lace the flexible panels to those. Then the frames would be supported much like the SS arches you have. I'm going to upload some photos of the potential solar panel locations next.

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by rgleason

I've been considering what I think are reasonable locations for solar panels and physical sizes (max).


Small dodger
* (x2 - port and starboard side)
* 24"×26" + 6"x16" centered on the 26" dimension.
* Flexible, secured with velcro tabs.
------

Stern Bimini Type support
* (x2 - port and starboard side)
* 24-26" x 48-54"
* Flexible, bifacing?,
* Some freedom in sizing.
* Secured to custom sized SS frame with line, no canvas involved.
* Frame angle will be adjustible along centerline of boat.
--------

Companionway slider cover in front of dodger.
* Single or double panel this size
31" x 27" max
* flexible, glued or secured to fibergless slider cover. This panel is cenered under the boom.
---------

Cabin side panels
* x2 - port and starboard
* 9-10" x 30-32", flexible glued or secured to cabin top. Not sure if these will be cost effective.
------

I am hoping to have about 300-350 watts of solar photovoltaic panels and am uncertain how these sizes will work with what is available while determinig the best solar panels to use.

Also I need to work out a good wiring plan and controllers, and the proper fittings to use to go through the deck. Will attach photos tomorrow.

Above is the initial description of possible solar panel locations and below are photographs of those locations. I think the dodger, bimini and companionway cover in that order of priority are probably the most realistic locations, but I would be interested in any thoughts about the small cabin top location.


Thinking of using something like .5"-.75" Carbon Fiber tubing and fittings for the bimini similar to this and painting it grey. The two square solar panel frames would be .5" and the supports perhaps .75"
Dragon Round Tube
Dragon modular connectors Look at pages 40 and 41 for some connectors for the .5" tubular solar panel frames, still not sure how to make the moment connections for the main frames.
Other Joints

[rgleason]

Originally Posted by misfits

I've got 2-24 volt, 100 watt panels wired in series on the rails of my 28'. They charge a 48 volt propulsion bank & the 12 volt house bank. Bought them from AltE in Boxborough, MA. I'd recommend going with a higher voltage panel. When charging the 48 volt bank I'll get 3-4 amps, the house bank I've seen 12 amps. The mppt? controller takes the higher voltage & produces decent amps at 12 volts. I used a Midnight Kid controller so I can pick & chose which bank I want to charge. By using higher voltage panels, you won't need as many.

Thanks for the pics and the detail!

I had not considered my 20" horizontal side returns on the stern railing adequate for a tilting stern mount, but your installation looks like it is about that length and it might work on our boat. The advantage would be that the weight would be less and lower. The disadvantage is that the panels might get in the way while sailing with our small stern, but it is worth considering, certainly as a first step, and if it works well, then no frame or carbon fiber tube is needed!

AltE Store Solar Panels

I think these would work angled off the stern rail, in lieu of the Bimini style installation, but perhaps a temp location.

ALTS-100w-12P $150 100w 12v Vmp=17.7 Imp=5.65a
40.2" x 26.4" x 1.4" 16.5 Lbs. 14.43% Efficient

ALTS-150W-12P $169 150w 12v Vmp=18.01v Imp=8.33a
58.3" x 26.4" x 1.38" 25.3 Lbs 15.6% Efficient

ALTS165-12M $189 165w 12v Vmp=18.72 Imp=8.82a
58.3" x 26.4" x 1.38" 25.3 Lbs 16.64% Efficient

It appears that if you can fit the larger panels it would be well worth it.
I agree with the Mppt controller, but wonder if the backstay mount radar and boom and sail with partially shade one of the panels. So I wonder if it would be better to have separate controllers.
Moving the anchor will certainly help!

Due to the panel weight of 33 lbs I'm going to look at flexible panels too, but these costs seem reasonable considering the 200w rating. I was also hoping to get more shade in the cockpit to be honest, or we're going to end up as dried prunes. There is no doubt the ALTS165M-12M would fit on a bimini style support, getting close to the 350w I initially wanted.

Misfits, looking at your pics, with a bigger stern than ours, I think the panels when turned horizontal, will intrude into the cockpit too much to get around the wheel. I think they would be better mounted on the top edge perhaps, but then the width would be too much for the railing and the panel will cover the sheer of the railing. Perhaps a compromise would work. I am not sure about ease of climbing around the stern for the dingy and outboard however.

[rgleason]

Looking at the AltE offerings overall, if a single big panel would fit somewhere, the
Q.PEAK DUO L-G5.3-390 390w 40.3v 9.96a $244 panel would be ideal. Alas that is not the case.

Check out this Carbon Fiber tube connector system from Dragon

[rgleason]

For 1" and .75" tubes Connectors

[cj88]

If you're thinking about using carbon tubes another option for connectors is CARBONNect https://www.rockwestcomposites.com/c...ies/carbonnect.

I quite like this idea of flexible solar panels and a bimini frame. Maybe with the addition of some plastic H-channel extrusion between the panels to prevent rain and spray ingress as a canvas cover would.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2628411

I have been told that unsupported flexible solar panels can be prone to micro cracking leading to failure so perhaps welding some mounting flanges to the bimini frame would help and/or some twinwall polycarbonate to mount on so still lightweight but rigid.

Of course, the same thing can be done with rigid panels and a bimini frame too.

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ml#post2319784

[rgleason]

cj88,
I really like the Illustrated Guide to Solar Installations on Boats and


this Companionway Cover Solar Panel posted by Sailsgood with 75W semi-flexible panel polycrystalline by FLY Solartech solutions €198 panel and €104 for the Victron 75/15 controllers.

and the Bimini flex panel installation posted by MOLI using 6 grommets and SS frames.

...in winds to 40 knots we saw no flapping of the panels, ...still getting 30 + amps from the controllers after 12 months ...see ...the tension lines from the grommets ..in the panel, however the grommets were placed between the individual cells so no cells are being bent. Overnight consumption ...80 - 120 AHs, we were always back to float by mid afternoon at the latest...
$400 for SS bows and supports, plus $120 worth of fittings
$220 each = $880 panels
$280? each for the Victron 100/30 controllers.

Our installation cost for the bimini would be significantly less for 2 panels. I like the H channel idea.
Rock West Composites Carbonnect is exactly what we've been looking at, agreed!

I've been having a hard time deciding what size tubes to use because I have no sense of how frail they are. The walls are just 1mm unless you find thicker tubing that won't work with Carbonnect fittings. I was going to use .5" or .75" tubing for the PV panel frames and 1" for the support frames, but the Connect system uses 1", 1.5" and 2". I assume the 1" would work for everything.

I think some support flanges would help. I am also interested in "bifacing" panels that pick up the reflection off the water as they can reach higher efficiencies of 22-24%. If these are solid panels (heavier), the frames might benefit from the rigidity at the top.

[barnakiel]

Avoid adding stern hardware (arches, davits, etc,) as these are so far beyond the rudder on your design. Limit any heavy hardware high up beyond the rudder line. Your boat will say thank you one day.


If you have split backstay(-s) as you might on a B32, you can hoist and trim one big sol panel on the backstays. Such an installation has zero added weight. The big + is you can control the angle too with just a piece of string.


Dodger top comes second best and bimini top in third (becuase is higher and further out from gravity).


We have a 26' boat and no problem fitting 200W on backstays. To get into 350-400W I would opt for dodger top.


If you cruise a lot and sail little, two very large panels can be fitted on the lines each side of the cockpit. This is what I do when we are in the West Indies, but I remove the panel on passages (too close to the water and too close to sheets, preventers, etc.)



Send some pictures when you are done!



Cheers,
b.

[rgleason]

I like Epiic Jeanneau 2015 hard PV bimini installation using 140w Solara Power M
but they have gone from $1400 to $1600. The $3200 is hard to justify I think.
https://www.emarineinc.com/SOLARA-Power-M-Series

Barnakiel wrote:

Avoid adding stern hardware (arches, davits, etc,) as these are so far beyond the rudder on your design. Limit any heavy hardware high up beyond the rudder line. Your boat will say thank you one day.


...Dodger top comes second best and bimini top in third (becuase is higher and further out from gravity).

Yes, I agree, about the priorities for panel location too. Thanks for pulling me back to the first goal of good sailing! - no split backstay on B32, so I have to work around that. Dodger top is too small for significant gathering, supports about (2) 50w panels on separate controllers due to shading.


List of Locations for Panels

[misfits]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Thanks for the pics and the detail!

I had not considered my 20" horizontal side returns on the stern railing adequate for a tilting stern mount, but your installation looks like it is about that length and it might work on our boat. The advantage would be that the weight would be less and lower. The disadvantage is that the panels might get in the way while sailing with our small stern, but it is worth considering, certainly as a first step, and if it works well, then no frame or carbon fiber tube is needed!

AltE Store Solar Panels

I think these would work angled off the stern rail, in lieu of the Bimini style installation, but perhaps a temp location.

ALTS-100w-12P $150 100w 12v Vmp=17.7 Imp=5.65a
40.2" x 26.4" x 1.4" 16.5 Lbs. 14.43% Efficient

ALTS-150W-12P $169 150w 12v Vmp=18.01v Imp=8.33a
58.3" x 26.4" x 1.38" 25.3 Lbs 15.6% Efficient

ALTS165-12M $189 165w 12v Vmp=18.72 Imp=8.82a
58.3" x 26.4" x 1.38" 25.3 Lbs 16.64% Efficient

It appears that if you can fit the larger panels it would be well worth it.
I agree with the Mppt controller, but wonder if the backstay mount radar and boom and sail with partially shade one of the panels. So I wonder if it would be better to have separate controllers.
Moving the anchor will certainly help!

Due to the panel weight of 33 lbs I'm going to look at flexible panels too, but these costs seem reasonable considering the 200w rating. I was also hoping to get more shade in the cockpit to be honest, or we're going to end up as dried prunes. There is no doubt the ALTS165M-12M would fit on a bimini style support, getting close to the 350w I initially wanted.

Misfits, looking at your pics, with a bigger stern than ours, I think the panels when turned horizontal, will intrude into the cockpit too much to get around the wheel. I think they would be better mounted on the top edge perhaps, but then the width would be too much for the railing and the panel will cover the sheer of the railing. Perhaps a compromise would work. I am not sure about ease of climbing around the stern for the dingy and outboard however.

The 100 watt, 40x26 is what's on the stern of my boat. If you look at the amps, 12 volts is 5.6 amps, the 24 volt is 5 amps. I highly recommend the 24 volt panel. You'll get more amps out of it when charging a 12 volt bank. The way I have them set, about 8" of the panel extends into the cockpit when they are in the horizontal position. When sailing I put them in the vertical position & they still produce. If you're concerned about shading wire them parallel. Mine are only in series due to the 48 volt bank.

Another option would be to mount a single 100 watt panel over the transom ladder. My buddy installed his in this fashion temporarily to see how it works. It's out of the way & looks pretty good.
I'll be back up in maine in a couple of days & will take a picture of his set up for you.

Bob

[rgleason]

Misfits

I was going to use two Genasun Booster controllers for those two panels.
I already have one Genasun 10amp controller, so it makes some sense.


I was also concerned about the current output exceeding the controller capacity because it is 36.23a


I think you are using an Outback Flex60 which is about $400 and about the same that 3 or 4 Genasun would cost. Why did you purchase that and what are its advantages?

I've made a spreadsheet with selections that might work for each of the locations, using Solbian SP & SR in the first table, Renogy Flex, and AltE Panel.

The differences in cost are substantial yet the amps produced from the specs are not significantly different. The watt/$ difference between the least cost and highest cost panels is about 6.75x's.

If one were to assume that the Solbian are going to last 10 years and the Renogy or AltE for 4-5 years. You could still purchase those panels one or two more times and be ahead, provided the output remain similar. Additionally, one additional offset would be to ride the technology improvements more frequently.


So I am trying to understand what is the compelling reason to purchase Solbian, other than knowing that the panels perform well (which reduces installation unknowns).


Please take the ".pdf" off the file attached.

[rgleason]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBUat-Drilw

[barnakiel]

Hey guys,


You may be doing something wrong.


Quote: "... The watt/$ difference between the least cost and highest cost panels is about 6.75x's...."


This to me sounds you used some exotic inputs in the comparison. I mean some exotic panel brands.


I (at times) design and supervise small solar plants on boats. With panels in 16 to 25% efficiency and regular 24 / 12 V install I have found the W/$ to range within 1.5. Note this is vastly outside your 6.5 figure.


The areas where I found biggest W/$ gains were:


- get 24V panels instead of 12V (if batt banks are 12V, that is),
- get fewer big panels rather than many smaller units,

- get more panels rather than fancy controllers (bosters??? why),


Plain mppt stuff from say Victron is good and inexpensive. Boosters boost dollars in the sellers account.



Indeed, one place where it may make sense to splash for fancy is frameless vs framed units. In smaller boats where weight is so important, frameless are better on roofs and on sterns with long overhangs or rudders that sit far frwd from the stern (Bristol).



If you want a booster ... get a bigger panel. And to span those darker days get bigger batteries. Yes, these are heavier than panels, but also tend to sit under the floors close to the keel, where heavy things belong.


Standby,
b.

[rgleason]

Barnakiel wrote:

You may be doing something wrong.
Quote: "... The watt/$ difference between the least cost and highest cost panels is about 6.75x's...."
This to me sounds you used some exotic inputs in the comparison. I mean some exotic panel brands.

I guess you did not see the spreadsheet at the bottom of Post #27

Summary using several examples in the spreadsheet:
Yes you are right, it should be $/watt. Sorry about that.

Dodger Port Side:
Solbian SP52Q 52 watts $529.00 --- $/watt = $10.17
Renogy Flex 50 watts --- $88.00 -- $/watt=$1.76

Bimini Port Side:
Solbian SR144 144 watts $1,079.00 $/watt =$7.49
Renogy Flex160w 160 watts $230.00 $/watt =$1.44


Barnakiel, what brands of panels do you use and how often do you have to replace them? Which ones do you like the most? Do you use any flex panels?

Also I was considering making a very light frame of carbon fiber tube for the bimini panels, but that is too expensive.

So I am considering using wood and encasing in fiberglass which would be light, or a light 1"x1" aluminum square tube with corner connectors (I would like it a little smaller), then attaching 1/16" white acrylic or polycarbonate sign painters sheet with Silkaflex 252 and attaching the flex panel to that with Silkaflex 252.

Heat will affect output voltage, is the 1/16" acrylic overkill?

For the smaller dodger panels I changed to 24volt panels, I assume this will not screw up the controller with higher amperage of 32.6amps, even though the system is 12vdc.

I have fixed the spreadsheet and reattached it. Take .pdf off please.