Solar vs wind vs hydro

[Pizzazz]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I gather Pizzazz that you are not of fan of our shower or solar systems in general .

I was just sharing that I went through the experience of optimizing solar power generation on a 31 ft boat and after many years and similar threads, I came to the conclusion that it cannot be done unless you go camping mode. You have a bigger boat so it is easier to install as many panels as you have. Actually, I am a fan of your boat (and you)!

It may be possible for two experienced cruisers to learn to live by with 5 or 10 gallons per shower but having six people get by for two weeks on 540 liters of water, i.e. 1.5 gallons of water/person/day? Why would you want to do that?

Let's take the washing machine example. I did install an LG drawer automatic washing machine on the Hunter 31, powered through the inverter. This thing consumed a lot of power and a lot of water (which took energy to make). 10 gallons of water per wash cycle (0.6 kWh to make) plus energy to heat the water (1.4 kWh) = 2 kWh per load. Then you need to dry it but I guess you can use the diesel heater or the sun for that. Say you do three loads per week, that is 6 kWh or 2-3 days of your panels working only for the laundry machine. It does not compute. If you used the engine, you would be heating the water efficiently, charging the batteries while making the additional water. Ain't that neater?

Anyway, the idea is to share experiences, everyone runs her boat differently.

[noelex 77]

Sorry for the thread drift, but this system is a way to enjoy a great shower with minimal power use so it has some relevance.

This is our shower cubicle. The shower rose on the right is fed from the warm water tank via its own pump and the shower rose on the left is cold water directly from the boat’s tanks.

There is a seat with the warm water storage tank underneath together with some large tubs for hand laundry (although we have a washing machine so this is a back up) as well as a removable rail for support in a seaway or to wring or hang wet items of clothing.

[bergius]

Originally Posted by bergius

I just found a promising 120W shingle panel:
https://www.autobatterienbilliger.de...20s-solarmodul

Inspired by this thread I've now ordered three of these panels. If they fit on the arch in a way we can both live with, that's where they'll go (sizes in the picture a bit approximate).



If not, then the third one will replace the current 60W panel on the hatch garage.



Two of our friends bought cruising boats this winter, so getting rid of the old panels won't be too tricky if we don't find a good place to mount them.

[Na Mara]

Originally Posted by bergius

Inspired by this thread I've now ordered three of these panels. If they fit on the arch in a way we can both live with, that's where they'll go (sizes in the picture a bit approximate).



If not, then the third one will replace the current 60W panel on the hatch garage.



Two of our friends bought cruising boats this winter, so getting rid of the old panels won't be too tricky if we don't find a good place to mount them.

For my money I think option 2 is better visually and also less likely to get dinged in a marina, particularly where we are with tall pilings.

[Na Mara]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Sorry for the thread drift, but this system is a way to enjoy a great shower with minimal power use so it has some relevance.

I am extremely glad you did drift the thread because I have learned a lot from you here. That setup is genius and really well executed. I am so nicking this idea from you and putting it on my boat. I think it will work even better there than on yours.

My shower cubicle has a big washbasin in it with a tap that serves as a shower head when needed. I use the big sink as the washbasin for the master cabin and for doing laundry (yes its that big). I can leave all that be and still enjoy the 40l calorifier hot water system after motoring or on shore power. But when off grid I could have your system. There is space for a tank just forward of the shower under the nav station in the pilothouse. 20-30l would easily fit there. I could have a filler cap in the sink counter. I then heat up 1.7l of water in my eco kettle to 90 degrees and mix it with 4.3l of cold from the existing tap in the shower to get 6l of water at 40 degrees. I could have a digital thermometer in the tank to confirm this. Do it twice and I have 12l of water at 40 degrees ready for a nice shower. Prep time about 8 minutes.

Here's the big pay off though.... total energy required less than 0.3kWh per luxurious shower and no fossil fuels needed!!!!!! I'm totally sold on this now and will be fitting it to my boat this season as a priority.

Cheap and easy to install, easy to use, huge increase in onboard comfort without much increase in energy budget.

Total genius noelex!

Where did you get this idea from?

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

You have a bigger boat so it is easier to install as many panels as you have.

Yes, there is no perfect answer that suits all installations and requirements. Alternative energy with no generator is not the right answer for everyone. It would be not practical on many vessels, but it is important to understand what is possible. The wash cycle you quoted is a good example.

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Actually, I am a fan of your boat (and you)!

Aw, shucks. Thanks.

Originally Posted by Pizzazz

Let's take the washing machine example. I did install an LG drawer automatic washing machine on the Hunter 31, powered through the inverter. This thing consumed a lot of power and a lot of water (which took energy to make). 10 gallons of water per wash cycle (0.6 kWh to make) plus energy to heat the water (1.4 kWh) = 2 kWh per load. Then you need to dry it but I guess you can use the diesel heater or the sun for that. Say you do three loads per week, that is 6 kWh or 2-3 days of your panels working only for the laundry machine. It does not compute.

We normally wash in cold water, although we sometimes do a pre-soak in warm. In addition, we are using an energy recovery water maker to produce the water necessary .

A cold wash on our machine uses around 170 Whrs for a full load. The energy recovery water maker takes us around 150 Whrs to make the required water

So a wash load for us is 0.32 kWh (a pre-soak in warm increases this to around 0.42 kWh) vs the 2 kWh needed for a warm wash with a non energy recovery water maker.

You can reduce the energy demand considerably with little practical change to convenience by installing the right equipment and adopting the right practices.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

That setup is genius and really well executed. I am so nicking this idea from you and putting it on my boat. I think it will work even better there than on yours.

Thanks. Nick away, that is what the forum is for, to share ideas.

Originally Posted by Na Mara

My shower cubicle has a big washbasin in it with a tap that serves as a shower head when needed. I use the big sink as the washbasin for the master cabin and for doing laundry (yes its that big). I can leave all that be and still enjoy the 40l calorifier hot water system after motoring or on shore power. But when off grid I could have your system.

Yes, there is nothing wrong with installing both systems and using what is appropriate depending on if you have done any recent motoring.

If anyone wants to try this, you can start with just a primitive bucket a submersible pump and shower rose (check the pump is OK with 40° C water). If you find it successful you can plumb in a proper marine pump and tank.

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Where did you get this idea from?

We have used this system on three boats over many years so I can attest it works extremely well, but I am sure we are not the first people to use this so I make no claims of invention. Our second yacht had a conventional system with a calorifier, but we quickly discovered it did not suit our lifestyle. We frequently stay in the one anchorage for days, or even a week+ and I hate cold or even lukewarm showers especially in winter, hence the desire to develop a better way that did not involve running the engine at anchor just to make hot water.

[noelex 77]

Originally Posted by bergius

Inspired by this thread I've now ordered three of these panels. If they fit on the arch in a way we can both live with, that's where they'll go (sizes in the picture a bit approximate).

More solar is better, especially reasonably unshaded panels. Option one is more wattage, but unfortunately I think the overhang at the stern is probably too great with three panels. So that leaves option two.

Another possibility is to install panels that retract so that when sailing (or in a marina) some panels slide or fold back under the central panels. This would work best for four panels with the two outside panels retracting under the central two panels. Two panels working when sailing and four at anchor.

It would be tough to make a system that was strong and rigid enough for an offshore boat, but it would be the ultimate answer for a canoe stern yacht such as you have.

I saw a video sometime ago of someone who constructed such a retracting arch and this may give you some ideas . A search should find it if, not I will look it up.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

I use the big sink as the washbasin for the master cabin and for doing laundry (yes its that big). I can leave all that be and still enjoy the 40l calorifier hot water system after motoring or on shore power. But when off grid I could have your system.

Your sink will have a drain going overboard. How about a diverter valve under the sink to direct water to a water pump. Fill sink with hot water from kettle and cold from tap to desired temperature. Turn diverter valve, lift sink plug and switch on pump. Instant shower a la Noelex style.

Originally Posted by noelex 77

I saw a video sometime ago of someone who constructed such a retracting arch and this may give you some ideas . A search should find it if, not I will look it up.

Mads on YT channel Sail Life.

[bergius]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Another possibility is to install panels that retract so that when sailing (or in a marina) some panels slide or fold back under the central panels. This would work best for four panels with the two outside panels retracting under the central two panels. Two panels working when sailing and four at anchor.

We already have the 300W FLINsail deployable solar panel (https://flin-solar.de/flinsail), so we’re pretty well set up while at anchor.

The problem is that the FLINsail has a wind range (above 18kt) where it needs to be stowed. And of course it can’t be on while sailing as it deploys in the mainsail track. So we need some solution that works in these situations and under way.

It seems a bit more fixed panels, plus later a hydrogenerator should fit these. Wind generator would likely also work, but it is hard to find a place where it would fit.

[Na Mara]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Your sink will have a drain going overboard. How about a diverter valve under the sink to direct water to a water pump. Fill sink with hot water from kettle and cold from tap to desired temperature. Turn diverter valve, lift sink plug and switch on pump. Instant shower a la Noelex

You might have been joking with this but I could easily do that, at least when not underway. Even cheaper system. Just add a two way valve, a pump and a shower head.

The sink is big, I’m just wondering if it’s THAT big. Looking at a 10l bucket right now and the sink would definitely hold 6l with room to spare, but maybe not the full 12.

Thinking about it though I prefer the full noelex as it doesn’t have a ghetto feel about it at all. In use it just is a shower. Also, some dirt would inevitably get into the pump considering the hard use the sink gets. So despite it being a very good suggestion I reckon I’ll do it right when I do it.

[Pete7]

No I was serious actually. Think you need either a 2 or 4 litre empty milk bottle and measure what the sink or replacement container will take. Then see what the existing shower produces a minute at a sensible but not full flow. The result will tell you if the sink or container holds enough for a sensible short shower rather than perhaps a hotel shower were someone else picks up the bill. Sadly our heads sink is tiny, so its a non starter for us.

[Na Mara]

Originally Posted by bergius

The problem is that the FLINsail has a wind range (above 18kt) where it needs to be stowed. And of course it can’t be on while sailing as it deploys in the mainsail track. So we need some solution that works in these situations and under way.
.

It was for these very reasons I discounted the Flinsail. But the same company now does very useful Flinrail guardrail mounted panels that can be kept up while sailing in up to 25kn apparent. If I was going to add solar after maxing out permanent mounting space, these are what I would add. 120W each and I have space for 10 of them when stationary, 4 when in motion. That is serious solar for a monohull.

[Na Mara]

Originally Posted by Pete7

No I was serious actually. Think you need either a 2 or 4 litre empty milk bottle and measure what the sink will take. Then see what the existing shower produces a minute at a sensible but not full flow. The result will tell you if the sink holds enough for a sensible short shower rather than perhaps a hotel shower were someone else picks up the bill.

Pete

Maybe I’ll start with the sink shower idea and try it all out. One advantage I can see with it is the ability to test the water directly for comfort. Another is the easier mixing process: Pour in kettle, turn on tap, watch temp gauge, pull plug, shower. A final advantage is knowing exactly how much water you have to shower with; no running out while still covered in suds. The idea does have merits.

Next time I’m on the boat I’ll take a picture of the sink and post it here. I’ll also measure the volume. From memory I think it must be about 8l.
.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by Na Mara

Next time I’m on the boat I’ll take a picture of the sink and post it here. I’ll also measure the volume. From memory I think it must be about 8l.
.

I am grateful for your calculations earlier in the thread. I had planned on a larger calorifier in due course on the basis of the large potato stays warmer longer than a small potato. However, if we replace like for like about 20 litres, it means the heating element powered from the inverter could easily heat the water. So thanks, we have a plan