Sump - float switch and pump troubleshooting

[brianc]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Your biggest concern in my opinion is shoddy wiring practices one day leading to a fire, so I will reiterate please read up on this as you do it. I'd hate to tell you to just jump into it, to later hear you lost your boat in a fire.

I hope I never have to report that I lost the boat in a fire (or any reason for that matter)! I will find someone to check my work afterwards to make sure it looks ok...worst case I pay someone to help me do it.

I'll attach some pictures in a separate post, I don't think some of the wiring in the bilge looks particularly "good" so I may re-do some of the connections.

[brianc]

Since you've all been so helpful...I'll keep this going if I can! Here are some pics I took over lunch.



These are the two brown wires coming in to the bilge (the sump is just forward of what you're looking at) presumably one coming from the panel and one running back to the pump. Is it a correct assumption that the positive from the pump runs to a bus bar somewhere connected to the panel and the brown wire from the panel switch is running directly to the float switch with the other brown wire running between the float switch and the pump? (I'm about ready to rip the interior paneling out so I can see everything, it would be much easier!)

The two yellow butt connectors are not heat shrinked and were wrapped (loosely) in electrical tape. I think they need to be re-done. They also connect to those two really small gray wires which run forward (about a foot and a half) and are connected to the larger gray wires on the float switch. I did the pin test on the smaller wires close to the connection to the wires coming off the float switch.

I don't see a gauge on them but why would it step down to the smaller size gray wires here and then back up a size or two to the wires coming off the float switch?

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

These are the wires from the pump running up toward the panel.

Imgur: The most awesome images on the Internet

And the connection at the panel...the bilge is the three way switch, the one "below" it is the water pressure and then the sump, again I'm assuming the wire coming out of the panel switch for the sump runs directly to the float switch.

Any thoughts? Thanks again, this has been really helpful!

[brianc]

Reposting the images as attachments.

[donradcliffe]

This could be a case of the dreaded 'DIY owner wiring'. The wire colors you quote are scary.

If the pump is a diaphragm pump, rotation direction doesn't matter, and both wires from the pump will be the same color. If it a rotory pump, it should have a different colored wires, or one one the wires should have a + sticker on it.

I would have thought that your C&C would be US wired, with red meaning positive and black or yellow meaning negative. If it is Euro wired, then brown will be positive and blue will be negative. Any other colors mean that the PO has been there, and you should not trust anything.

The bilge pump wiring should look like
Installing a Bilge Pump by Don Casey - BoatTECH - BoatUS

It should not go through the breaker panel, so that you can turn off the panel and battery switches while keeping the bilge pump energized.

[brianc]

Alright, I think I'm getting somewhere...I re-read most of the 'Sailboat Electrics Simplified' last night and I at least think I understand how the sump pump is wired.

- Negative from the pump (black wire, must have been built before yellow became the negative standard) runs to a bus bar in the panel
- Positive from the pump runs to the float switch (brown with yellow stripe)
- Positive from the panel runs to the other side of the float switch (brown with yellow stripe)
- Float switch is in series with the pump on the positive side
- When the panel switch is turned on, power goes from the panel to one of the float switch wires, and when the switch is actuated, the circuit is closed and the pump gets power

I'm going to start diagramming this out if I can't fine one from the manufacturer in their binder (haven't looked recently and can't remember if they provided one.)

Does anyone have any ideas as to why the brown wires would step down to the small gray wires before stepping back up to the wires coming out of the float switch? There's enough slack to run the brown wires and connect them directly to the wires from the float switch without stepping down to the smaller gauge, should I do that?

Thanks! Brian

[brianc]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

This could be a case of the dreaded 'DIY owner wiring'. The wire colors you quote are scary.

If the pump is a diaphragm pump, rotation direction doesn't matter, and both wires from the pump will be the same color. If it a rotory pump, it should have a different colored wires, or one one the wires should have a + sticker on it.

I would have thought that your C&C would be US wired, with red meaning positive and black or yellow meaning negative. If it is Euro wired, then brown will be positive and blue will be negative. Any other colors mean that the PO has been there, and you should not trust anything.

The bilge pump wiring should look like
Installing a Bilge Pump by Don Casey - BoatTECH - BoatUS

It should not go through the breaker panel, so that you can turn off the panel and battery switches while keeping the bilge pump energized.

The bilge and sump pumps are both Jabsco Water Puppy's 18660 model, rotary, and both have one red and one black wire which are labeled.

It looks like the brown wires are used for pumps only, both sump and bilge as well as water pressure all use them. The other wires are consistent, red positive, and black negative.

The bilge pump is wired as you described, I'm working on the sump pump which is just an on/off switch at the panel with a float switch to activate the pump (for now at least.)

[leftbrainstuff]

Those things are junk. Smoke will rarely come from the switch. That will be the pump motor.

Quick test. Lift the float switch. Pump should run.

Multimeter and 12v power and you can trouble shoot.

Process of elimination.

sv Sedoza Sakona Liberty 458 hull 12

[bad.wabbit]

You got the curcuit figured out.
I'm assuming the gray wire is coming directly out of the float switch? It's ok if it is a smaller gauge if it is short. Manufacturer is saving money by using less copper.

[donradcliffe]

Sorry about the confusion with the bilge pump. You are quite correct about the wiring.

What switch are you using? The Rule switch comes with two smallish black wires like those in your first picture. Those wires are way too small to use with yellow butt connectors.

I'd chop those connectors off, restrip all the wires, turn the panel breaker on, and touch the two brown/yellow wires together. If the breaker doesn't blow and the pump runs, test the switch by twisting its wires back into place (look for corroded wiring first) and lifting the switch. You can also test the continuity of the switch with a multimeter.

If the pump doesn't run, twist the yellow/brown wires and check voltage between them and a good ground. If its 12v, then cut open the splice on the pump ground wire and check it to a good ground. If that's near zero, you have a bad pump. If its near 12v, you have a bad pump ground wire.

The most common problem is the switch. Rule switches are expensive and unrealiable, but they are more reliable than the cheaper switches. The next most common problem is corroded wiring in the bilge area.

When you put it all back together, either use heatshrink butt connectors, or coat the cheaper ones with liquid electrical tape to seal the ends.

[brianc]

Originally Posted by bad.wabbit

You got the curcuit figured out.
I'm assuming the gray wire is coming directly out of the float switch? It's ok if it is a smaller gauge if it is short. Manufacturer is saving money by using less copper.

In the photo, the two brown wires are connected to two small gray wires that run through the hull liner in to the sump where they're connected to the two *larger* gray wires coming directly out of the switch, and those appear to be the same size as the brown ones in the pic. So I don't know why they'd step down to the smaller gray wires and then back up to the larger gray wires coming out of the float switch...

[bad.wabbit]

Ahhh... so maybe the the installer went cheap on you with the gauge size. Bilge wire covers see different service than regular marine wire and are resistant to diesel, oil, gas. The cover is commonly gray.

[brianc]

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

What switch are you using? The Rule switch comes with two smallish black wires like those in your first picture. Those wires are way too small to use with yellow butt connectors.

It's a Rule switch...there's one for the bilge and one for the sump. Oddly, the bilge switch has two small wires (like in the picture) directly wired to the two brown wires, but the sump switch has two larger gray wires (roughly the size of the brown ones) which are stepped down to two smaller wires (the two in the picture) and then stepped back up to the two brown wires with the yellow butt connectors in the pic.

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

I'd chop those connectors off, restrip all the wires, turn the panel breaker on, and touch the two brown/yellow wires together. If the breaker doesn't blow and the pump runs, test the switch by twisting its wires back into place (look for corroded wiring first) and lifting the switch. You can also test the continuity of the switch with a multimeter.

If the pump doesn't run, twist the yellow/brown wires and check voltage between them and a good ground. If its 12v, then cut open the splice on the pump ground wire and check it to a good ground. If that's near zero, you have a bad pump. If its near 12v, you have a bad pump ground wire.

This assumes no sparking and no blown breakers, correct? If the wires smell like they're burning and/or the breaker blows, what would you test/do then?

So if the pump doesn't run and there isn't any burning smell or blown breaker, leave the power on and check voltage between the twisted brown wires and what for a good ground in the bilge? Or I guess my meter cables can probably reach the negative bus bar on the panel, would that work?

If I get to the point of checking the pump ground wire, I cut that connection and check negative to a ground? I'm not familiar with checking a ground wire...

Originally Posted by donradcliffe

When you put it all back together, either use heatshrink butt connectors, or coat the cheaper ones with liquid electrical tape to seal the ends.

Thanks again, this is really helpful!

[brianc]

Originally Posted by bad.wabbit

Ahhh... so maybe the the installer went cheap on you with the gauge size. Bilge wire covers see different service than regular marine wire and are resistant to diesel, oil, gas. The cover is commonly gray.

Yeah seem likely... when I put it all together, there's no issue connecting the brown wires directly to the float switch wires, is there?

[brianc]

Update...it's working!

Thanks to everyone here and a couple others who also helped me learn how to troubleshoot and ultimately get it working.

Here's what I found.

- The float switch was bad, no continuity when the switch was actuated.
- The pump was 'sticky' but still works
- The voltage drop on the long wire run was within the normal range

Here's what I did.

- Disconnected the float switch to test continuity (failed)
- Cut the wires to the pump and hooked it up to the battery (disconnected it entirely from the hoses as well because I didn't have leads or clips long enough to leave it in place while hooking it up to the battery. The pump ran connected to the battery
- Installed the new float switch bypassing the step down/up connecting the wires from the float switch directly to the brown wires from the panel and pump.
- Filled the sump with water to trigger the switch and the pump didn't run but the amp meter read 25+
- Disconnected the pump again and tested the voltage drop at the wires connected to the pump...it was about 6-7%
- Wired the pump to the batteries again using alligator clips and ran a bunch of water through it
- Reconnected it to the float switch using alligator clips and it ran normally when the switch was actuated. Ran a bunch more water through it and it was still working normally.
- Reconnected all the components and we're in business!

No guarantees the pump isn't going bad but I have a spare now and at least I can troubleshoot it in the future.

Thanks again for the help!

Brian

[Cheechako]

-The pin test damages the wire allowing water intrusion...bad.
-I like the manual switch myself.
-It sounds to me like your pump is bad. If there is voltage to the connections and the pump doesn't turn, AND there is no string etc jamming the pump blades.... it's bad.
-If that same cheap pump is in your bilge, get a good one and a good auto switch also. Use the Bilge one for your shower.