Switching to Lithium

[jlodolce]

the posts I see in this forum regarding lithium batteries are not recent. considering latest Li options and costs, I am opening a new thread.

I have 1995 Freedom 40/40 #16 on Lake Ontario:

I have to replace my batteries this year due to their age and not holding charge. This will be my third replacement in 15 summers with the boat. I have three house 4D AGM's (200Ah each x 3 = 600Ah) and a group 31 AGM starter battery and monitor them with a Victron. We commonly anchor several days at a time. I understand I can safely let them go down to 50% charge, but generally don't let them drift down past 75%. I don't like starting a voyage with depleted batteries, since I do not have either solar or wind generators.

All my cabin lights are LED. About 10 years ago, I replaced my refrigeration to a Frigi-boat system, using a brass through hull fitting for heat exchange, one of the best improvements I ever made to the boat. I can stay at anchor for about 3 days before I get anxious to recharge, while in reality, I tend to recharge and replenish hot water using a portable Honda EU2200i generator for about 45 minutes once per day.

I have often considered changing from AGM to Lithium ion, because they are supposed to last 10 years, are about 50lb each compared to 120lb, can be discharged to 80% without damage, and they are supposed to recharge 6 times faster. The expense always held me back, but I see online that I can now buy 200Ah 4D size lithium ion batteries for about the same price as AGM's ($600-$800 each).

I have a 4 year old high capacity Electromax programmable alternator/regulator and a 5 year old Mastervolt 40 amp 12/40-3 44210200 dockside charger which I believe are both programmable for Lithium ion batteries.

My greatest fear is fire. I read that the new Li batteries have built in regulators to prevent them from being over charged, and that properly setting the alternator and dockside charger to Li specs should also prevent this. If I make the change, I will have my boatyard mechanic do the work, since they installed the alternator and dockside charger, and would be responsible for ensuring that they are programmed correctly.

Does anyone have any thoughts to offer me on this?

[tkeithlu]

I've been watching Li-ion forum threads for awhile to see if there were reported problems with overheating or fires. Fires in fiberglas boats tend very quickly to be catastrophic, because fiberglas resin burns like hot tar and produces very toxic smoke. So far, there's not been a reported problem. I'm inclined to think that we are beyond the OMG problems, with better structures holding the cells, better programming, and better choices of cathodes.

The MV Conception (dive boat, California) fire was possibly caused by a small lithium battery, but I don't think that's been determined, and it was not an installed battery situation. It does show what happens a few minutes later on a fiberglass boat.

I suspect that if I were making the conversion to Li-ion, I do as you plan with professional installation. Consider in addition placing the batteries in a metal fire-resistant box and adding a fire suppression system. Good luck with it.

[SOLAR SUPPORT]

Lithium technology has entered the marine market with plug and play batteries with advantages such as lightness, performance and long life.

It's good that they're light, which is especially important for the auto industry when the main drive is electric. On boats, the situation is different. Service battery places are already available and their light weight is not a big advantage.

The performance feature is really superior to LA batteries. With high current, it is possible to charge and discharge, and while the discharge continues, the battery voltage becomes more stable and higher. This is a good thing, but this feature is not vital unless it is used for main propulsion on boats.

The longevity issue is not clear yet. Because the promised lifetime can only be achieved with a very well controlled charging system. However, even if you replace the existing charging mechanisms on boats with new ones by making an investment that exceeds even the cost of Lithium batteries, it does not seem very possible to fulfill the healthy charging conditions of Lithium batteries.

This technology has been developed especially for cars. When batteries are used on boats, they have to be discharged while being charged. However, in cars, the charge is controlled very precisely without a load. This situation makes it inevitable for lithium batteries to undergo a charging phase, which is contradictory in terms of use on boats, since chargers require very sensitive current and voltage adjustments at the stage of being fully charged at 80-100% SOC. Waiting for a long time at 100% SOC level without being discharged also shortens the life of lithium batteries.

Installations built according to LA battery technology on boats can already provide 7-8 years of service life with sufficient capacity AGM batteries and solar energy support. Many AGM storage technologies that have completed this process have proven themselves in boats in the marine environment. Since lithium technology, especially Lifepo4 batteries, is a very new storage technology in the marine environment, it cannot be said that it has yet proven itself in terms of the promised sevice life.

[hjohnson]

I'm in the process of moving my Ericson 27 from the traditional pair of group 27 deep cycle Lead Acid batteries to a Lithium setup. We're going from maybe 90AHr usable battery capacity to 450ish usable AHr. In the same volume as our current battery, we can get fully 5x the capacity.

In our case, we're doing a DIY/custom LiFePO4 battery setup. The BMS I've selected (REC ABMS) integrates with the rest of the power system via CAN Bus, and will keep a close watch on the cells as they charge/discharge. We're also taking steps to physically restrain and protect the cells in the locker where they are stored.

One of the nice things about LiFePO4 is you don't need to provide the same ventilation as you do with Lead Acids, so we're going to close them up more to keep them dry.

I'll probably start a thread on our project as we get going. It's a bit of a fun challenge to cram this crazy, oversized power system into a small boat.

[valhalla360]

Unless you are on a light weight high performance boat, the weight is unlikely to be a big deal.

The big advantages I see:
- Unlike LA batteries which slow down charging at arounf 80-90%, LI can charge fast up until full.
- LA are happiest at 100%. It's not the end of the world to sit at 80% but not ideal. LI on the other hand are happiest at a mid level of charge (30-80%), in fact, it's not ideal to leave them sit at 100%.

The biggest issue is you need to charge them properly to get the theoretical longevity.

[more]

First for all ignoramus. you must buy lifepo4. this battery is safe to fire.normaly don't punch, put in fire battery, eat battery,drink electrolyte from any battery

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qzt9RZ0FQyM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p21iZVFHEZk

also i suggest for all ignoramus use lifepo4 in PVC case,do not use Al case battery because this battery is made for another purpose. this AL case lifepo4 is possible install in boat but you must use isolation plate, isolation box,holder ecc.

[more]

Originally Posted by jlodolce

the posts I see in this forum regarding lithium batteries are not recent. considering latest Li options and costs, I am opening a new thread.

I have 1995 Freedom 40/40 #16 on Lake Ontario:

I have three house 4D AGM's (200Ah each x 3 = 600Ah) and a group 31 AGM starter battery and monitor them with a Victron. We commonly anchor several days at a time. I understand I can safely let them go down to 50% charge, but generally don't let them drift down past 75%. I don't like starting a voyage with depleted batteries,
but I see online that I can now buy 200Ah 4D size lithium ion batteries for about the same price as AGM's ($600-$800 each).



Does anyone have any thoughts to offer me on this?

you use 600 x 12 = 7200W x 0,25( you say discharge to 75% ) = 1800W or 12v system 150 ah

200AH lithium x 0,8 = 160ah

you are ok to go with 200ah lifepo4 battery but for example this is 2000$ not 800$ battery.
https://www.coloradostandby.com/vict...t-bat512120610

very rare i suggest victron battery but i think because you ask the basics, you don't understand the matter and for your safety, i recommend these ready-made batteries with BMS

[more]

But for other in USA,Canada,Caribien this is good battery for couple $

https://www.electriccarpartscompany....fied-Batteries

buy 4 pieces. connect in parallel charge CC and on end CV 3,6v
dismantle and proper connect in series 4 pcs and you have a safe battery to charge 14,1V .
you can install BMS or active balancer on battery

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by more

also i suggest for all ignoramus use lifepo4 in PVC case,do not use Al case battery because this battery is made for another purpose. this AL case lifepo4 is possible install in boat but you must use isolation plate, isolation box,holder ecc.

Glad I don't fit in the ignoramus camp
Thin plastic cutting boards as dividers
18mm plywood compression box with 10mm Booker rod.
Easy

Got double the amp hours for half the price of the yellow plastic.

[more]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Glad I don't fit in the ignoramus camp
Thin plastic cutting boards as dividers
18mm plywood compression box with 10mm Booker rod.
Easy

Got double the amp hours for half the price of the yellow plastic.

VariCore 3.2v 310Ah Lifepo4 Rechargeable Battery Lithium Iron Phosphate Solar Cell 12v 24v 36v Lifepo4 Cell US/EU TAX FREE
[Transaction Screenshot]
$ 390.00 X3
Product properties: 12x lifepo4 310Ah
Order amount:$ 924.24

do you know this my almost new battery i buy. is in reality old 4-5 year. installed in new china scam green car sharing shema. maybe this car have 100-200 km drive from factory to green sticker certificate station,register car and parked for 2 year. after 2 year car is abdaned and leave to leasing /bank company.

what car factory do in china (50-70% ev car) factory made car with autonomy 20-100 km max open car green sticker sharing corporation,and after collect from government subsidy ,leave company

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKiITsxoP4Y

with compression, you do not gain anything except more security for possible expand. normally always from china depend series and factory who produce this battery

[Cyrus Safdari]

There are different chem8stries but the last of three key patents for lithium batteries will expire in a few months, things should get cheaper but not by much; the main reason China leads in LFP battery production is high gov't subsidies there, and we in the States have to add duties etc. https://patents.google.com/patent/US7285260B2/en

[more]

Originally Posted by Cyrus Safdari

There are different chem8stries but the last of three key patents for lithium batteries will expire in a few months, things should get cheaper but not by much; the main reason China leads in LFP battery production is high gov't subsidies there, and we in the States have to add duties etc. https://patents.google.com/patent/US7285260B2/en

China is in the Driver’s Seat of development/patent in lithium, lithium battery, solar and rare metal.

[Simi 60]

Originally Posted by more

do you know this my almost new battery i buy. is in reality old 4-5 year. installed in new china scam green car sharing shema. maybe this car have 100-200 km drive from factory to green sticker certificate station,register car and parked for 2 year. after 2 year car is abdaned and leave to leasing /bank company.

Just because you got a dud deal on batteries doesn't mean we all have to.

Mine were matched and batched with supporting documentation that matched on arrival.
Batteries are a "k"build so only been in production for a few months

[rgleason]

@tkeithiu wrote

"I suspect that if I were making the conversion to Li-ion, I do as you plan with professional installation. "

No don't use that!

[more]

Originally Posted by Simi 60

Just because you got a dud deal on batteries doesn't mean we all have to.

Mine were matched and batched with supporting documentation that matched on arrival.
Batteries are a "k"build so only been in production for a few months

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N31Rvc_y1l0