There REALLY are reasons...

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I never said it was!

I didn't say you did!

(but then, what's the connection to the thread?)

[K1MGY]

Originally Posted by Ballsnall

Interesting that the solder causes a hard point but a crimp does not. I find that logic extraordinary, Have you never seen an non soldered crimp fail at the crimp?

Seems to me the likely root cause was the wire strand count and the lower quality heat shrink used, possibly even mechanical damage.

A poor solder joint in this case should not be dismissed. Soldering is a skill and an art.

And I agree - no mechanical difference between crimping and soldering. If wire flexes at the joint, it should be stabilized so it does not.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Yes and those people would have done better with soldering to include properly supporting both ends of the joint mechanically? I think not.

Your logic seems to be I can solder really well and some people crimp really badly so soldering is better. I would say if you care enough to solder really well including take the added cost and effort to mechanically support both sides of the joint well you can crimp really well too and do it with less time and effort.

Maybe I wasn’t clear.

Both crimp connections and soldered ones require mechanical support and suffer the same failure rate and mode of failure when done improperly. I am comparing apples with apples.

The problem arises when some don’t know how to properly solder just as when some think but don’t know how good their crimp connections are.

It’s easy to confirm the former; it’s impossible to confirm the latter. Consequently, a properly soldered and supported connection is preferable

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

Maybe I wasn’t clear.

Both crimp connections and soldered ones require mechanical support and suffer the same failure rate and mode of failure when done improperly. I am comparing apples with apples.

The problem arises when some don’t know how to properly solder just as when some think but don’t know how good their crimp connections are.

It’s easy to confirm the former; it’s impossible to confirm the latter. Consequently, a properly soldered and supported connection is preferable

You can not use solder everywhere. So you must have good crimps if you own a boat and want safe reliable connections. There is no way around that. You and I both know you have crimped connections on your boat.

So just solder and do it right isn't an option. Even the person with the greatest soldering skills will need to make proper crimps. So if someone has the tools and skills to properly crimp connectors then solder is a solution in search of a problem. If they don't solder doesn't help either because there will be places they need to crimp wires.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Statistical

You can not use solder everywhere. So you must have good crimps if you own a boat and want safe reliable connections. There is no way around that. You and I both know you have crimped connections on your boat.

.

I never implied otherwise. There are always exceptions to any generality but those exceptions (like battery terminal cables) don’t mean the concept is flawed.

I’ve had battery cable crimps pull off simply by moving a battery because someone though his crimp was good.

By contrast, properly soldered and mechanically fixed connections don’t do that. Opinions vary but facts dont…

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

By contrast, properly soldered and mechanically fixed connections don’t do that.

Neither do properly crimped connections and we have now established that safe electrical wiring on a boat requires properly crimped connections. So if one can proper crimp electrical connections solder is a solution in search of a problem.

If they can't then soldering can't help them either.

[S/V Illusion]

Originally Posted by Statistical

Neither do properly crimped connections and we have now established that safe electrical wiring on a boat requires properly crimped connections. So if one can proper crimp electrical connections solder is a solution in search of a problem.

If they can't then soldering can't help them either.

Please read what I wrote, not what you think.

Either type connection can be safe (or not) and nothing has been established why crimp connections are preferable for all the reasons I already mentioned. I gave you the explanation but I can’t make you understand so continuing this debate seems pointless.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by S/V Illusion

The problem arises when some don’t know how to properly solder just as when some think but don’t know how good their crimp connections are.

It’s easy to confirm the former; it’s impossible to confirm the latter.

Absolutely not true. You can tug-test any crimp to get an idea of its integrity. And if you are using a known-good controlled-cycle crimper with the lugs it's set for, the success-rate for making proper, dependable crimps is extremely good. (this is the point)

Whereas someone who's poor at soldering is very likely also poor at inspecting them.

Lots of ways, visible or not, in which a solder joint can be defective. How about: using acid flux (or no flux)? Nice surface but insufficient solder penetration? Dirty or corroded wire inside?

Has connection brittleness and insulation/strain-relief melting after soldering lugs been mentioned? I think it has.

Consequently, a properly soldered and supported connection is preferable

A solder-only DC power connection is never preferable. I thought you already acknowledged this.

nothing has been established why crimp connections are preferable

It has, you just won't acknowledge it.

Crimp connections in marine wiring:

• are both mechanically and electrically sufficient, in one operation
• are easier and faster to make, with consistently better results
• have a higher success-rate in more people's hands
• are easier to inspect and test
• have integral strain relief (thanks Gord for reminding us)

I'm happy that you are apparently a good solderer. I would have little fear of electrical problems aboard your boat. Nonetheless, this doesn't make soldering advisable for most people.

[s/v Jedi]

This fight is useless because both methods are good when properly done.

When you crimp big cable lugs to the inverter and connect that, do you not understand that this circuit continues inside using soldered connections?

Also, I see most boaters crimp wrong. They even use side cutters to do a crimp, or terminals from the Napa or when they have proper terminals with glue lines heat shrink, they use a crimper that does a double crimp which isn’t for these terminals and damages the heat shrink. Or they burn the heat shrink with a flame.

The thing is that when a non-tech, say 90% of cruisers, gets the good terminals and the good crimper and good wire and a mini heat gun then they can do proper crimps, while they have no chance of doing a proper soldered connection.
The only reasonable soldered connections I have seen are with the new heat shrink with low melt temperature solder already inside it and which is done using a heat gun. The problem with that is the low melt temperature and I would only use these for a lightest duty connections, like data or maybe a LED lamp.

[Lake-Effect]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

This fight is useless because both methods are good when properly done.

Absolutely! No question that there are some good solderers, and some crappy crimp-makers.

The issue is people contradicting the prevailing advice, and dumping on a standards body and others for promoting a very dependable connection method, and pretending that if "I can make good soldered connections", then it can be prescribed for everyone as being equal or superior, which is simply not true.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Absolutely! No question that there are some good solderers, and some crappy crimp-makers.

The issue is people contradicting the prevailing advice, and dumping on a standards body and others for promoting a very dependable connection method, and pretending that if "I can make good soldered connections", then it can be prescribed for everyone as being equal or superior, which is simply not true.

Yes, it’s always like that here. When one posts that a Hallberg Rassy is a great blue water cruiser, you still get plenty who strongly disagree.

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Lake-Effect

Absolutely! No question that there are some good solderers, and some crappy crimp-makers.

The issue is people contradicting the prevailing advice, and dumping on a standards body and others for promoting a very dependable connection method, and pretending that if "I can make good soldered connections", then it can be prescribed for everyone as being equal or superior, which is simply not true.

I would add that even if one is literally the greatest soldering skills in history most connections on a boat are ill suited for soldering. So you are also going to need to be at least a decent at crimping too with proper tools, lugs and understanding. So lets assume one has that. Yes in a few places they could solder a connection instead of soldering but again why? Solder is fragile and subject to melting when overheating. Even a perfect solder joint can be damaged. There is no benefit to soldering wires on a boat because there are no 100% solder boats. It is impossible.

So it isn't solder OR crimping. For the accessible wiring on a boat it never was and it can't be.

It is:
crimping only
OR
substantial amount of crimping + some soldering on a minority of joints (which require more work, take longer, are less consistent and require external mechanical support).

It is unclear that the second provides any value. It is a solution in search of a problem.

I offer a pass on soldered VHF connections simply because I have never found a non-soldered one which is any good although I assume they do exist with the right tools.

[AKA-None]

I hope everyone here understands that in a proper crimp there is no place for solder to flow as everything is sealed
I guess that’s why they call them gas tight

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

I hope everyone here understands that in a proper crimp there is no place for solder to flow as everything is sealed
I guess that’s why they call them gas tight

Yeah which makes crimp + solder the absolute worst option. It is all downside with zero benefit. I think it comes from thinking like crimp is good, solder is good using both must be super good. No you largely destroyed the reliability of the crimped connector for zero benefit.

[CarinaPDX]

The OP gave an example of how to do it wrong, by soldering after crimping on a terminal that was attached to a hot and vibrating engine. This was wrong in so many ways, but it does not prove anything about solder or crimping on their own, in different applications. But people see what they want to see.

Done correctly, crimping is a very reliable solution, in appropriate applications. I grew up in the electrical construction business, and the journeymen electricians made (reasonably) reliable crimps with simple crimpers. But of course they had instruction and 5 years of apprenticeship to get there, and their hands were strong after all of the practice. They also knew which crimper to use for the different types of crimps. It was an article of faith that anyone else would almost certainly do a bad job of crimpng, which I found to be true. Today, with the proper crimper (or jaws) for the terminal used (assuming the tool is adjusted correctly) an amateur who has done his homework can produce a reliable crimp. And if high quality adhesive-lined insulated terminals are used it will very durable.

Done correctly, soldering is a very reliable solution, in appropriate applications. With the correct soldering tool (iron, gun, pencil) with the correct power (Watts) and temperature, and using the correct solder (rosin not acid core), a skilled person can make a quality solder joint. If sealed and protected, with adhesive-lined heat shrink, or painted with a thick coating of liquid PVC and then heat shrink or taped with a high quality tape, the solder joint will be very durable.

The key point is that either will work fine, in the right applications. Neither is likely to be a good choice if the installer does not possess the knowledge to do it correctly, or if used in the wrong application. For those that don't already possess these skills crimping offers the best chance for success, if and only if, the proper tools and terminals are used with good directions, because modern crimpers will ensure adequate force. Soldering requires much more learning to get right. (Reluctant admission: in engineering school I made a bunch of cold solder joints in a project, to my embarrassment.)

Soldering an already crimped terminal is generally a bad idea. Don't do it unless you know it is the right method for the situation. I can't think of one off hand.

Whenever this topic comes up I cringe when I hear people declare that solder is never a good solution. That is just wrong, as Jedi pointed out. When I built Carina I ran a 12VDC power line on each side of the boat, in a PVC conduit just under the deck along the hull. These lines were for lighting and some other small applications. I used PVC tees where I needed, and stripped the wires and wrapped the branch wires around the bus wires, soldering and covering properly. This ensured a reliable through connection as the bus wire was never broken. In order to do this I left a small loop at each tee, and tucked it inside when finished. In the 40 years or so since I did this I have never had a failure, although admittedly a small sample. I would be genuinely interested in how I might have accomplished that job better with crimps, using today's options (extra credit: with options available in 1980).

Greg