Tiny Powered Alternators & DC Generators

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Rumpi

QUOTE=newhaul;2712894]would love to find out what pm generator head they put on the d1 .
I have an md1b sitting on a pallet just looking for a job to do.

You actually have some options if you want to diy. I'll list some:

1. Search for a cheap chinese inverter generator with a busted engine. All inverter type generators use PM's. Transplant generator head and electronics. You may need to gear up to get to the gas motor rpm to get full rated power. Simplest option, gives AC power. If you find a generator with busted electronics proceed like option 2 or buy the black box.
2. Get a Honda IMA generator from any wrecked Honda hybrid car. Rewire the stator to lower output voltage, (or completley rewind the stator to your desired specs), rectify and smoothen. Use a solar or wind PWM controller of apropiate input voltage range and amperage to deliver steady DC to batteries. This is a pretty involved option due to the fact that the IMA is an inrunner with no shaft.
3. Get a small chinese PM ev motor. Electronics as above. For small kW there are controllers with regeneration but you will probably need at least a 24V battery bank, this is better suited for higher voltages.

There are other things to consider like load regulation (arduino and stepper motor for the throttle for example), and that's why option 1 might be the best even if you have to buy the electronics as spare parts.[/QUOTE]

actually I am looking at a build that will allow running of a couple pm motors from treadmills in opposite sides of a short output shaft

[rgleason]

John,

It depends on what your needs are and what "tiny" means.
If you are able to have high acceptance over long periods (600-1200 ah of Li batteries) tiny means something different, than the 25% acceptance of 225-350ah FLA.

Further, if the Engine Alternator is used for the 1-1.5 hour/day to charge up to 80-85% SOC and a "tiny powered alternator" is used to hold the CV 14.8v with decreasing amps to 1% of 20C. The amperage during this stage is significantly different than Bulk requirements.

There are several different solutions dependent on the size and type of batteries being used. I think the specific battery type and 20C should be stated with any observations/opinions.


Half of you passionate forum posters have Li and huge battery banks on your brains. It would be nice to distinguish this in the comments. Thank you.

[rgleason]

Free Piston Generators Wikipedia

Free piston range extender for hybrid cars

Toyota improve free piston generators


a small diesel version of this might be the answer.

[Pizzazz]

It is really hard to come up with a solution that has not been tried before. Alternators are inefficient at 12V but cheap and reliable and the wasted efficiency is not so bad if you are also using the engine for propulsion.

Charging above bulk - I think we discussed this at length in another thread. Let’s just be clear that it is really hard to add more solar panels to a 30 ft boat. You have the dodger and the area behind the stern. That’s it.

Lastly, small diesel generators. Take a look at the $249 gas powered inverter generators on Amazon, 700W, 20lb. Delivered to your boat, use it for a couple of years then gift it. Pure and simple. If you like the concept and want reliability buy a Honda.

[skenn_ie]

Originally Posted by Rumpi

Use a solar or wind PWM controller of appropriate input voltage range and amperage to deliver steady DC to batteries.

PWM is never a smooth power source. For smooth, you need a BUCK converter, or a lot of capacitors.

[rgleason]

https://www.efoy-comfort.com/technical-data

https://www.efoy-comfort.com/benefits

The Efoy Comfort 80, 140 or 210 will solve the FLA "Long Tail Charging" issue, providing quiet, reliable power in the 3.3a to 8.8a range (80ah-210ah/day). They will fully charge the FLA and shut off and then restart automatically when voltage drops to 12.3v The charging regimen is adaptable to FLA, Gel, AGM and LiFePo and can be user defined. I would prefer this over a 40a shorepower charger because it can be used day or night, shore power or not, and I have the alternator for bulk charging.

They are relatively small (9.1x7.6x12.5 in) will replace one battery bank in terms of size. The fuel is pure methanol and costs about $80 for 925 ah.
Fuel Cartridge M10 - Methanol 2.64 US gal / 10 liter, 11.1 kWh / 925 Ah 18.5 lbs / 8.4 kg 9.1x7.6x12.5 in / 23x19.3x31,8 cm

For my 225ah batteries the $80 would be 925/33 = 28 full charges from 85% full, all done in peace and quiet, without running the engine/alt except to get it up to 85% charged. That is $2.86 /full charge, not bad + the initial cost (not so good)

The real problem is the initial cost
https://www.fisheriessupply.com/efoy...10-2-64-gallon
Efoy 80 $3000
Efoy 140 $4299
Efoy 210 $5900

There is a new EfoyGO due out 2019 which is a smaller 20ah combination Lithium Battery and fuel cell that will accept charging from solar, car, home, etc. It is just 12lbs. Unfortunately it has a 230v inverter. That might also work.

This appears to be the best solution (other than using Solar) to "Tiny powered Alternators & DC Generators" to solve the FLA Long Tail charging" problem without using Engine/Alternator (ICE), thus properly maintaining the batteries when shore power is never available.

Solar may prove to be less costly, but not quite as reliable, and depending on the boat, there may be limited places to locate the solar panels.


One advantage is I would not need to do Lithium batteries either, however a good lithium battery with BMS might be cheaper all around.


How it works https://www.campervanstuff.com/shop_...ct&id_prd=1068

[a64pilot]

An issue with the Efoy is for it to charge it has to put out more than your house load, which in my case I don’t think it does.
Then as you point out, they are not cheap.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rgleason

https://www.efoy-comfort.com/technical-data

https://www.efoy-comfort.com/benefits

The Efoy Comfort 80, 140 or 210 will solve the FLA "Long Tail Charging" issue, providing quiet, reliable power in the 3.3a to 8.8a range (80ah-210ah/day). They will fully charge the FLA and shut off and then restart automatically when voltage drops to 12.3v The charging regimen is adaptable to FLA, Gel, AGM and LiFePo and can be user defined. I would prefer this over a 40a shorepower charger because it can be used day or night, shore power or not, and I have the alternator for bulk charging.

They are relatively small (9.1x7.6x12.5 in) will replace one battery bank in terms of size. The fuel is pure methanol and costs about $80 for 925 ah.
Fuel Cartridge M10 - Methanol 2.64 US gal / 10 liter, 11.1 kWh / 925 Ah 18.5 lbs / 8.4 kg 9.1x7.6x12.5 in / 23x19.3x31,8 cm

For my 225ah batteries the $80 would be 925/33 = 28 full charges from 85% full, all done in peace and quiet, without running the engine/alt except to get it up to 85% charged. That is $2.86 /full charge, not bad + the initial cost (not so good)

The real problem is the initial cost
https://www.fisheriessupply.com/efoy...10-2-64-gallon
Efoy 80 $3000
Efoy 140 $4299
Efoy 210 $5900

There is a new EfoyGO due out 2019 which is a smaller 20ah combination Lithium Battery and fuel cell that will accept charging from solar, car, home, etc. It is just 12lbs. Unfortunately it has a 230v inverter. That might also work.

This appears to be the best solution (other than using Solar) to "Tiny powered Alternators & DC Generators" to solve the FLA Long Tail charging" problem without using Engine/Alternator (ICE), thus properly maintaining the batteries when shore power is never available.

Solar may prove to be less costly, but not quite as reliable, and depending on the boat, there may be limited places to locate the solar panels.


One advantage is I would not need to do Lithium batteries either, however a good lithium battery with BMS might be cheaper all around.


How it works https://www.campervanstuff.com/shop_...ct&id_prd=1068

The biggest one only puts out 105 watts. I don't think that's going to be enough for the long tail of a decent sized lead bank, let alone the house loads.


Even if it worked, $6000 is a lot to pay to avoid spending $3000 or whatever on lithium, which doesn't need any tail charging.


And then there's the running cost! The 10 liter fuel cartridge costs £50 and is only good for about 10kW/h. Yowza! I believe it would be cheaper to abuse the generator.

[john61ct]

Yes, fuel costs are even more astronomical ongoing than the upfront acquisition.

And sourcing the right fuel, certainly outside of Europe is a challenge.

[rgleason]

Compare the all the costs for a generator, or running an engine for that matter, it may not be as bad as you seem to think. The fuel is available in my state and many others. Admittedly my battery bank is smaller than yours, and with this fuel cell, reliable capacity would be gained as well. $2.64 to fully charge FLA batteries is not so much compared to Dockage Costs!

When I wrote "Tiny Powered Alternators & Generators" I had an open mind, but I wanted a device that would produce current & voltage to handle the FLA Long Charging Tail (FLALCT, in John's parlance) which requires relatively low amps for long periods of time. I have planned on a new 120a Balmar Alternator with ARS-5 regulator and serpentine belt to replace my 23 year old Balmar for bulk charging. At this point I am unsure if that will work properly with Lithium.

This fuel cell device accomplishes what is needed, is easy to install, easy to use, automatic, can also replace any shore power charger like a Sterling Ultra Pro 40 Charger, and makes PV (large array windage) more optional - more expense deffered.

I did say:

"One advantage is I would not need to do Lithium batteries either, however a good lithium battery with BMS might be cheaper all around."

So now guys, here is a challenge. You've been studying and thinking about this for months and are experts in Lithium, so what is the Lithium Battery system (batteries, BMS and any other devices needed) that I should consider for a small 200 ah House Bank?

I have looked at roll your own, BMS, Batteries etc. It looks too complicated to me, but with some guidance I might be able to do it. The costs however look pretty high.

I'd like to get small prismatic batteries, say two strings (each string 4 cells in series 100ah). I'd like to have an option for a third string to increase to 300ah.

The cells would need to be less than 8.5" height for sure, for the cabin under seat, port side location that is closest to the engine.

So what is it? Winston roll your own, with what BMS? Or Victron Lithium with sensors that plug into their BMS? Or some other manufacturer? John says I don't need balancing of the cells.

I would like to have the BMS controls and alternator Regulator properly treat the Lithium for a long life, and I would like to be able to reasonably easily remove the cells in the winter.

But with all the discussion and questions about configuration and alternator damage etc. I don't think I'll ever get it worked out.


I am looking forward to see what the EfoyGO which has a lithium battery costs in 2019. It may be less expensive and also work (taking longer overnight), and be less expensive.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by rgleason

FLA Long Charging Tail (FLALCT, in John's parlance)

I have never used that ridiculous acronym.

> John says I don't need balancing of the cells.

That is not what I said. I do strive to be precise, lay out the info best I can, but the actual decision is up to you.

Please do not twist my words.

_____
I highly recommend for your use case, a packaged Victron or Lithionics system. Bruce @ Ocean Planet will likely include the required training for proper care.

Installation space and cost issues aside.

If not, stick with lead.


> But with all the discussion and questions about configuration and alternator damage etc. I don't think I'll ever get it worked out.

Yes I think DIY requires more confidence with electronics.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by rgleason

. . . I did say: So now guys, here is a challenge. You've been studying and thinking about this for months and are experts in Lithium, so what is the Lithium Battery system (batteries, BMS and any other devices needed) that I should consider for a small 200 ah House Bank?

I have looked at roll your own, BMS, Batteries etc. It looks too complicated to me, but with some guidance I might be able to do it. The costs however look pretty high.

I'd like to get small prismatic batteries, say two strings (each string 4 cells in series 100ah). I'd like to have an option for a third string to increase to 300ah.

The cells would need to be less than 8.5" height for sure, for the cabin under seat, port side location that is closest to the engine.

So what is it? Winston roll your own, with what BMS? Or Victron Lithium with sensors that plug into their BMS? Or some other manufacturer? John says I don't need balancing of the cells.

I would like to have the BMS controls and alternator Regulator properly treat the Lithium for a long life, and I would like to be able to reasonably easily remove the cells in the winter.

But with all the discussion and questions about configuration and alternator damage etc. I don't think I'll ever get it worked out.
. . ..

Well, if you like, post all possible details about your electrical system, and let's all pitch in and see if we can collectively come up with a solution. This will be fun and educational for all of us.


I would guess that a small system like this won't be so complex or expensive.


I haven't built one yet, but in a couple months of studying lithium power systems, I have come around to the view that if you just forget what you know about lead and start with your mind fresh and with a clean sheet of paper in front of you, lithium isn't really that complicated and not that hard to manage.


Then if you like what we come up with that, you can start implementing. Or if not, not.

[newhaul]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, if you like, post all possible details about your electrical system, and let's all pitch in and see if we can collectively come up with a solution. This will be fun and educational for all of us.


I would guess that a small system like this won't be so complex or expensive.


I haven't built one yet, but in a couple months of studying lithium power systems, I have come around to the view that if you just forget what you know about lead and start with your mind fresh and with a clean sheet of paper in front of you, lithium isn't really that complicated and not that hard to manage.


Then if you like what we come up with that, you can start implementing. Or if not, not.

exactly
The most important part forget everything you know about caring for batteries and start fresh.

[rgleason]

Thanks Guys, will post new diagrams on "Small Boat Electrical System for Sail" after I get it roughed out, in hopes you can guide me.

Well, if you like, post all possible details about your electrical system, and let's all pitch in and see if we can collectively come up with a solution. This will be fun and educational for all of us.
I would guess that a small system like this won't be so complex or expensive.

[rgleason]

Was reading the manual for the Efoy and thought this would be of interest.

3.5 Battery protection

The EFOY COMFORT fuel cell has automatic battery protection when the EFOY COMFORT fuel cell is switched off.
Battery protection is activated automatically if the battery voltage drops below a certain level (11,2 V for lead-acid batteries and 11 V for LiFePO4 batteries ) for more than 15 minutes. "Battery protection" mode ends as soon as the voltage reaches 12.8 V.
The battery protection function provides deep discharge protection for the battery, even when the EFOY COMFORT fuel cell is switched off and does not take over the charging function.