Triskel power generation system on Distant Shores III

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

That would deal with the side load issues, but are there other issues taking lots of power off the front of the crankshaft?

The answer to that question I believe lies in the difference in the front and rear crankshaft main bearings, it’s common for the rear to be much larger.

[john61ct]

An old-school Kubota / Beta would be my choice, grounds up install, mod to space available if needed,

allowing all available power to be put to any one of 3-4 uses.

Propulsion being the default / optimized / most failsafe one.

Ideally power shared between at least two uses concurrently, proportionality adjustable while underway.

I think asking older farmers about this would get some practical lower-cost suggestions.

[a64pilot]

I’m surprised no one has brought up a hybrid system yet, where you only generate electricity that can be used for anything, driving the boat etc.
An electric motor “pod” with a folding prop ought to be very low drag, have two for a back up and maneuvering.
Heck it’s just money.

[a64pilot]

In all seriousness the cost and complexity with such systems is why most just buy a generator in a box, that is held into the Boat with four bolts, run the exhaust, feed it fuel, wire it and give it a thru hull, and your done.
Easy peesey.

When I first started planning this cruising thing, I thought big DC generator, massive battery bank and an inverter.
Then reality sat in when I realized none of this existed and I’d be rolling my own everything, and I could do that or go cruising.

[john61ct]

A smaller boat may have the ability to only carry one heavy engine.

If what I'm talking about above could be rigged from an outboard, that would be my preference.

[a64pilot]

A smaller boat that can only carry one heavy engine is likely best served with a Honda and Solar.
Good as in excellent shore power chargers exist and a Honda can supply a 100 amp charger, I think.
Mine lives in the cockpit under a cover, takes up little room

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

In all seriousness the cost and complexity with such systems is why most just buy a generator in a box, that is held into the Boat with four bolts, run the exhaust, feed it fuel, wire it and give it a thru hull, and your done.
Easy peesey.

When I first started planning this cruising thing, I thought big DC generator, massive battery bank and an inverter.
Then reality sat in when I realized none of this existed and I’d be rolling my own everything, and I could do that or go cruising.

Indeed, and resistance to self-rolled systems for exactly the reasons you state is what kept me off lithium batteries for all these years.


The self-rolled system has to be quite a lot better, a big leap forward, to be worth it, or should be a very simple self-rolling process. Why? Because you are doing the engineering and development yourself, and the effort and cost to do that is amortized over only ONE unit, rather than letting a proper engineer do it properly, and amortize the cost over thousands of units. That is such an advantage that it is worth putting up with a significantly inferior system. To get the benefit of OPED -- Other People's Engineering and Development.



That being said, there are some possible cases where it might make sense for some owners. I've about come around to lithium power, for example, where the advantage are so huge, and the own-engineering work is very straightforward, and there is a certain amount of OPED available through the community.



Generating power with big cheap standard alternators may be another case -- you don't have to engineer the alternator, which is much simpler than the electrical end of a generator-in-a-box, and the drive system is no rocket science, and we already have the inverter.



But as a general principle, I certainly agree with you, and it's an important point.

[Colin A]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Indeed, and resistance to self-rolled systems for exactly the reasons you state is what kept me off lithium batteries for all these years.


The self-rolled system has to be quite a lot better, a big leap forward, to be worth it, or should be a very simple self-rolling process. Why? Because you are doing the engineering and development yourself, and the effort and cost to do that is amortized over only ONE unit, rather than letting a proper engineer do it properly, and amortize the cost over thousands of units. That is such an advantage that it is worth putting up with a significantly inferior system. To get the benefit of OPED -- Other People's Engineering and Development.



That being said, there are some possible cases where it might make sense for some owners. I've about come around to lithium power, for example, where the advantage are so huge, and the own-engineering work is very straightforward, and there is a certain amount of OPED available through the community.



Generating power with big cheap standard alternators may be another case -- you don't have to engineer the alternator, which is much simpler than the electrical end of a generator-in-a-box, and the drive system is no rocket science, and we already have the inverter.



But as a general principle, I certainly agree with you, and it's an important point.

I see some real use cases for this it depends on how you use your boat. A former customer of mine for instance has a 30' nonsuch with no gen. He has solar but mostly relies on a 400Ah battery bank and a 180 amp alternator setup. He cruises 3-5 months of the year from Long Island Sound north to Newfoundland. He really doesn't need AC but he does have refrigeration and a separate freezer compartment that take most of the power. He tends not to stay in one place very long maybe 3 days at the most. In that use case he could likley cut down on his main engine run time with a system like this and a slightly bigger battery bank. My guess is over time a system like this would not have to be hugely expensive. But I have not heard what this current system runs.

[Adrian Chen]

We have recently pressed the button on a new Southerly 480 as per Distant Shores III, and spoke to the vendor about this system. I thought it was an interesting option, and would certainly like to have understood how it might have performed with the lithium batteries we had chosen. As it turned out we were unable to stall the Southerly's build process sufficiently to give the time to compare and contrast the system against the default generator that was already delivered and awaiting install.

My interest was piqued purely because there may have been a viable option to dispense with a separate genset, whilst giving very rapid recharging of the main Lithium bank almost within the normal runtime of the propulsion engine in leaving anchorages etc. I stress this was my desired target, but sadly the time was not available to convert that into a proven or reasonably assured outcome. Maybe next time when more real world info is available, and if I still have any money left...

But with all the other decisions to be made in the build process of a new boat, plus the anticipation of seeing her finished I'm having a great time working with the Discovery team anyways

[SV DestinyAscen]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

In all seriousness the cost and complexity with such systems is why most just buy a generator in a box, that is held into the Boat with four bolts, run the exhaust, feed it fuel, wire it and give it a thru hull, and your done.
Easy peesey.

When I first started planning this cruising thing, I thought big DC generator, massive battery bank and an inverter.
Then reality sat in when I realized none of this existed and I’d be rolling my own everything, and I could do that or go cruising.

Volvos intends to field an entire line of integrated hybrid systems in its diesel lineup within the next 2-4 years.

[MaCro]

Originally Posted by Adrian Chen

We have recently pressed the button on a new Southerly 480 as per Distant Shores III

Congratulations, Adrian! It does look like a beautiful boat - I hope you enjoy it, and the electrical system is surely capable regardless. I look forward to hearing more from you as the build and delivery move on!

[MaCro]

New video from Triskel demonstrating computed efficiency of the Integrel system. Fuel consumption data in this instance undoubtedly comes from the engine's computer via J1939, but could probably be obtained with a pair of fuel-flow sensors on non-electronic engines.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cmQX3-4o9zg

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Ken, assumption is that this Boat is a proof of concept, a mule in automotive terms, a prototype in aircraft.

From my viewpoint the base concept is flawed from both a reliability of supply and it's alien nature to the ethos of cruising under sail.

It adds excessive complexity to the vessels electrical system where as simple and robust a system as possible is required.

It provides insufficient redundancy on a single engined monohull.

I do a couple of thousand miles of coastal cruising each year and often go for weeks at a time only running the main engine for thirty or forty minutes per day whilst entering and departing anchorages.

I have been on a mooring for almost two months and have only run the engine for about fifteen minutes a week to check it will still start and that the prop will still turn.

I suspect that this is a fairly common usage pattern among cruisers which would not be well catered by Nigel's system (I am generally a big fan of Nigel's stuff and it is often my first port of call on technical matters)

[john61ct]

Is your usage so low on the hook you get by on solar alone?

Have you got a genset?

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by RaymondR

From my viewpoint the base concept is flawed from both a reliability of supply and it's alien nature to the ethos of cruising under sail.



It adds excessive complexity to the vessels electrical system where as simple and robust a system as possible is required.



It provides insufficient redundancy on a single engined monohull.



I do a couple of thousand miles of coastal cruising each year and often go for weeks at a time only running the main engine for thirty or forty minutes per day whilst entering and departing anchorages.



I have been on a mooring for almost two months and have only run the engine for about fifteen minutes a week to check it will still start and that the prop will still turn.



I suspect that this is a fairly common usage pattern among cruisers which would not be well catered by Nigel's system (I am generally a big fan of Nigel's stuff and it is often my first port of call on technical matters)

A lot of cruisers do as you do.
That is because they have made concessions or adapted to the available power, become very efficient in their consumption.
There are however more people that can afford a new Boat that would rather have essentially unlimited power, and not have to adapt. They want to leave the TV on while they go asleep or maybe want to hear the AC fan at night. Just like they do at home.
Of course a system like this means your running your main propulsion engine every day, and not for propulsion.
Likely your doubling the number of hours on the most expensive engine as opposed to putting hours on a less expensive generator.

I only see this as an advantage on a smaller boat, however I suspect the cost of such a system will deter its use on smaller boats.