Triskel power generation system on Distant Shores III

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

So now the naval architects are going to design future boats around this jumbo alternator system that’s being proposed?

Assuming it get into mass production and goes mainstream, yes.
However I think its primary market is the big Cats.
Reason is they currently fit enormous generators which are very heavy.
However the other half of the equation to make this more viable is a Lithium bank, that requires no babysitting or adjustments, suitable for the Charter trade.


Now as far as being variable output, John why do you think this is so important?
It’s not saving much if any fuel at all, a good generator install is nearly silent and vibration free, but start varying the RPM and it’s likely you’ll find some frequencies that cause secondary vibrations, just as there usually are in the big motor, certain RPM’s cause things to shake.

I went and visited the NextGen folks since I’m here in Jacksonville. Not that they are any kind of good generator, the little Marine Gensets are almost a sideline for them, they usually provide larger fixed generators, often combo with an air compressor.
An Inverter generator isn’t rocket science, there is no Patent to keep you from building one, however it doesn’t scale well, much above the little suitcase generator it makes less and less difference in efficiency, adds a significant amount of complexity, for very little gain.

The fuel a Diesel burns is directly related to the amount of work it does, very little extra fuel is used keeping the engine at speed.

[tanglewood]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Minor quibble:


A heavy duty genset is not really cheaper than a propulsion engine. My main and genset cost roughly the same, around £20 000 each.


A light duty genset is cheaper as an absolute number, but probably not per hour run, when you factor in the much shorter useful life.


And also -- it is more economical to run one item of plant twice as many hours per year, than double the plant for half the hours each, because TIME is a big part of the cost -- time value of the investment into the plant.



Just like it is -- obviously -- more economical to run one airplane twice the annual hours, than splitting the same number of hours across two airplanes.



So if you can do the same job with one engine, even if you have to run it double the hours per year, you will come out ahead in terms of cost, maybe way ahead.


One diesel engine vs two is also lighter, which can have a significant effect on sailing performance.


I think you are underestimating the strong points of this approach.


And one variant of this approach which I find very attractive for me (as someone who cruises in some extremely remote location, so needs more reliability than the average bear), is to use the main engine like this for primary power generation, driving some kind of very large alternator, but to have a light duty generator like the NexGen instead of a heavy duty generator like what I have. Because then the genset can be mainly backup, rather than prime power. That would save a great deal of money, weight, and space, compared to what I have now.


But I think with enough alternator capacity on the main engine, most cruisers could dispense with the genset. Other than those who plan to run air conditioning for long periods of time -- that's a very specific use case. Those folks will need a heavy duty generator.

All good points, and I think it comes back to the question of where this might apply as a beneficial product. It's basic market segmentation as done when targeting sales of any product.


It still seems to me that this best fits in smaller boat where large alternator load control, in particular load lightening, is needed to prevent engine overload. And in small boats where there is no generator, or where one wants to get rid of the generator.


Once you get into a boat that has a generator, and where the main is large enough to be able to handle large alternator loads as controlled by a typical external regulator, this product becomes a lot less interesting.


What I found very interesting was I think Ocean Planet's comment that this was meant for large boats with big power budgets. To me those are not a good fit since they most likely have generators anyway, and already have large alternators controlled by external regulators for high power output form the main. In that case, I see very little value-add from the Triskel device.

[tanglewood]

Can anyone figure out the efficiency video? It makes no sense to me.


- How do they measure power/fuel attributable to propulsion?


- How do they measure power/fuel attributable to power generation


The number seem to be some sort of estimate, other than the total fuel burn and the KW output of the alternator.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Now as far as being variable output, John why do you think this is so important?

Not saying it is "so" important.

But I **am** interested in other alternative ways to getting a similar level of control from current OTS components.

You must admit, getting a lot of AH per day "for free" wrt ongoing costs, even with a high upfront investment, sounds pretty compelling to a frugal cruising liveaboard.

And from a technology advancement POV, that is this gear's USP, even if "no need for a genset" is from a practical $ & ¢ POV

So when someone says "we're doing that already" I want to find out how.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

It still seems to me that this best fits in smaller boat where large alternator load control, in particular load lightening, is needed to prevent engine overload. And in small boats where there is no generator, or where one wants to get rid of the generator.

I'm not sure if that applies to their market segmentation, I think largely the price point will drive that.

But technically those points are what interest **me** in my use case.

> Once you get into a boat that has a generator, and where the main is large enough to be able to handle large alternator loads as controlled by a typical external regulator, this product becomes a lot less interesting.

Well "large" is slippery. Few boats of any kind have alts much over 3kW, never mind 8+. You're getting into multiple aircon'd cabins there.

Only requiring the genset while not underway may be enough to justify it. Not to mention much greater redundancy.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by tanglewood

Can anyone figure out the efficiency video? It makes no sense to me.


- How do they measure power/fuel attributable to propulsion?


- How do they measure power/fuel attributable to power generation


The number seem to be some sort of estimate, other than the total fuel burn and the KW output of the alternator.

With modern chip-controlled gensets, all that info is readily available with great accuracy, in real time.

[RaymondR]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Is your usage so low on the hook you get by on solar alone?

Have you got a genset?

Since I spend most of my time in the tropics there is plenty of sun through fairly long days. Whether or not I can carry through a couple of overcast days depends upon how I run my refrigerator. I have not had this boat long but intend to fit a eutectic system in the fridge and only run the compressor when their is plenty of sunshine. I expect to fairly well never have to do anything but solar then.

I have a small 1000 watt genset but am considering a DC genset using a 5.5 hp Honda electric start petrol engine I already have. I want to run a water maker HP pump off it as well.

[a64pilot]

John, the 8KW plus I feel sure is to charge a mega LFP bank and reduce run times of the engine, I doubt they have an 8 KW load?
You could of course reduce alternator output rather easily if you so desire, it can be as simple as a rheostat. That isn’t automatic, but it is a variable control.

From a normal cruisers perspective, I use 300 ish AH in a 24 hour period perhaps less.
My 1KW of Solar will make 300+ AH on an average day. If I were LFP I’d never need to run anything, except I’m lead acid and I need to run at least a little Honda a couple of hours, a couple of times a week just to completely recharge my lead acid bank.
Seeing as how I decided to have a generator anyway, I picked an AC high output Watermaker, so I can make a weeks worth of water during those couple of generator runs a week, and wash clothes too.

Most current cruisers its my belief don’t need and won’t benefit from a system such as this, this is for the “Power users” that want shore power capability at anchor and or don’t want anything to do with Solar.

When the price for this is released, I think small Boat guys will decide its not for them too. That is my prediction, let’s see if it holds true or not.

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Well, the referents of the pronouns I used seemed self-evident, but here you go.

In detail, please specify, how do [they - your boats] already have [this - the below capabilities you were referring to]?

> a control system that can vary its output to allow either maximum propulsion or maximum electric production, or optimize combinations of both automatically

Originally Posted by tanglewood

All good points, and I think it comes back to the question of where this might apply as a beneficial product. It's basic market segmentation as done when targeting sales of any product.


It still seems to me that this best fits in smaller boat where large alternator load control, in particular load lightening, is needed to prevent engine overload. And in small boats where there is no generator, or where one wants to get rid of the generator.


Once you get into a boat that has a generator, and where the main is large enough to be able to handle large alternator loads as controlled by a typical external regulator, this product becomes a lot less interesting.


What I found very interesting was I think Ocean Planet's comment that this was meant for large boats with big power budgets. To me those are not a good fit since they most likely have generators anyway, and already have large alternators controlled by external regulators for high power output form the main. In that case, I see very little value-add from the Triskel device.

John,

Mr. Tanglewood explained my points. Our boats are equipped with a second large externally regulated alternator on the engine dedicated to charging the house bank, both came equipped this way when new in 2001 and 2009. When we motor at 5-7 knots, everything in the way of charging the house bank takes place automatically, so I can’t see how this new system is innovative in any way.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

John, the 8KW plus I feel sure is to charge a mega LFP bank and reduce run times of the engine, I doubt they have an 8 KW load?

Yes of course. Personally, charging is my only load for mains or AC genset.

> You could of course reduce alternator output rather easily if you so desire, it can be as simple as a rheostat. That isn’t automatic, but it is a variable control.

Does that regulate amps only, leaving voltage at the precise setpoint?

> Seeing as how I decided to have a generator anyway, I picked an AC high output Watermaker, so I can make a weeks worth of water during those couple of generator runs a week, and wash clothes too.

I plan the same, likely CruiseRO 40+gph, but DC powered.

> don’t want anything to do with Solar

I don't feel that way but my plans with LFP makes solar redundant, and I prefer less clutter / windage topside.

> When the price for this is released, I think small Boat guys will decide its not for them too. That is my prediction, let’s see if it holds true or not.

I agree, at least in early stages.

But want to pursue getting some of the same results if possible with inexpensive DIY system integration of OTS components.

Namely live regulation of current / HP demand, even if done manually.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Kenomac

John,

Mr. Tanglewood explained my points. Our boats are equipped with a second large externally regulated alternator on the engine dedicated to charging the house bank, both came equipped this way when new in 2001 and 2009. When we motor at 5-7 knots, everything in the way of charging the house bank takes place automatically, so I can’t see how this new system is innovative in any way.

OK thought you meant the automated balancing of HP going to electric production (or other tasks) vs propulsion.

that is the innovation, and very valuable when the genset can be taken out of the picture,

and where the engine can devote most of its power to the non-propulsion tasks.

Obviously there will be many use cases where these ideas don't fit.

[john61ct]

So just for clarity, you now say your statement here

Originally Posted by Kenomac

Our boats already have this including the 2001

is not true, your "this" refers simply to regular HO alternator usage, with a fixed (maximum) current output.

If you want to adjust that parameter, need to change setpoints at the VR, at best periodically.
Cannot vary how many HP used for electricity live while circumstances change under way.

[a64pilot]

In charging voltage and amps are related, they are not separable, reduce the voltage and amps will decrease, increase voltage and amps go up of course.
You can’t maintain voltage and reduce amperage, or increase for that matter.
Any alternator controller I know of only “knows” voltage and only controls voltage.
To control amperage, it would have to be connected to a shunt wouldn’t it? However you would still control amp output by varying voltage
Of course you could I guess infer amperage by knowing field voltage and be able to decrease power by set amounts by reducing field current, I’m pretty sure that is how Balmar does it, with belt manager, small engine mode etc.
Of course if you did have a huge alternator on a relatively small motor, one that would be overloaded motoring, all you need to do is flip a switch and engage small engine mode, you could even put a microswitch on the throttle quadrant if you didn’t trust yourself to remember so that anytime the motor was in gear, small engine mode is engaged.
That is why it exists of course, so the argument that we already have this is not all that incorrect, we just don’t have it on nearly the scale that is presented here.

[Colin A]

I don't think this system is using field voltage to control alternator output. It mentions permanent magnet generation. In which case it becomes pretty hard to regulate voltage. so My guess would be the voltage regulation is done inside the smart box electronically. The voltage from the alternator generator likely moves around quite a bit. Also I know permanent magnet generators can usually make more power at lower RPM which is why you see them in some wind gens.

[a64pilot]

Sorry, I wasn’t speculating about this system, just regular alternators in general. Sort of supporting except for scale, yes we already have systems similar to this.