Triskel power generation system on Distant Shores III

[mcarthur]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I disagree, don’t put it on a small motor, you’ll easily overload it, on a small motor it would only be useful at anchor, it takes a big motor to be able to extract the 10 to 20 HP to run it without being overloaded while motoring

No way (IMO). A large motor can just use big alternators, it doesn't need much intelligence.

The ONLY advantage I think with Integrel is that they control the motor usage to best use fuel and power to produce electricity AND propulsion. A large motor doesn't need the electricity AND/OR propulsion management: for almost all the time unless you are at WOT a huge amount, it's not going to need intelligence to take off another 5-10hp and manage the motor.

Also, as one of the reasons for Integrel is supposed to be fuel consumption, there's no way that Integrel is going to use any intelligence in engine management to get a big motor to best fuel consumption place. e.g. a large 270hp-400hp motor at say 200hp is not suddenly get better consumption by adding 5-10hp!

On the other hand, take a 40hp on a sailing boat. It's easier to get it to a better fuel place by using another 10hp. But that 10hp is also going to possibly mean your propulsion ability is definitely effected. In both cases careful management can be a good idea vs just adding a big alternator.

[a64pilot]

The power output of a big alternator is easily variable by several means.
That 40 HP motor your talking about, cannot take more than 5 HP or so if it’s properly propped, so then your $20,000 big alternator has a small alternator output, because it turns itself down to what the engine can handle, if it works correctly which I have to assume it does.
Want to save fuel? Put on an Autoprop, that claimed 25% fuel savings is mythical, I assure you. It’s based I’m sure on not having to feed a generator and using “free” power from your Diesel, except free power is mythical, sure an average boat with an average fixed prop the motor is being underutilized, but your not going to increase power output without burning fuel.
It is exactly like all the people who swear their car gets better fuel mileage at 70 MPH, or pick another number because at that speed their engine is operating at its sweet spot efficiency wise.
Sure there is an efficiency increase, but it’s not much, it’s smaller than other factors.
If you want to put $20k+ into a “smart” alternator that’s your option, but you can install a pyrometer and do better by manually controlling a regular alternator if you wish, all you need to do is vary field current, and that’s easy.

But by running your engine harder it will shorten its life, there is no free lunch. How much? I have no idea, but if your one who’s engine will die from rust it won’t matter.

Sorry but I thought this would be a great ideal like someone said if it was half the cost of a built in generator (I’m not including the battery bank, just the parts that make power)
But $20K or even close to that when a baby generator can be had for well less than half that, sorry not interested.

Besides how much fuel do you have to save to pay for a $20K piece of hardware?
My alternator at a 90 amp continuous output takes care of all my needs, charges my bank, runs my watermaker whatever. I only use the generator when at anchor, and I’d bet my case is pretty typical.

[rom]

Originally Posted by OceanPlanet

The Integrel system can output 8kW or more, around 150A x 56V, and has a very advanced regulation system to automatically maximize output without overloading the engine.

Sorry if I missed the answer but this thread has become hard to read... Do we have any more details on that particular technical point ? Say my engine is reving 2000RPM, how does the Integrel system know I am gently cruising on flat water or struggling upwind with 40kts of wind and 4 meters sea ?

[malbert73]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

That 40 HP motor your talking about, cannot take more than 5 HP or so if it’s properly propped, so then your $20,000 big alternator has a small alternator output, because it turns itself down to what the engine can handle, if it works correctly which I have to assume it does.


.

I’m not sure about this above. Most engines if propped “correctly” (to hit max rpms) are way under loaded at normal cruising RPMs. This is because most engines are really oversized on many sail boats, way beyond the one and a half to 2 hp per ton. Morgan’s cloud has a really good discussion on this for those who are subscribed.
And this can harm engines quite readily (glazing cylinders). The answer is to run them up at high rpm‘s to load them properly, but if your engine is oversized that means you are digging a big hole in the water and burning more fuel. Or have a variable pitch prop which really is not doable except for auto prop.
Or, over prop the engine so that you can run at the lower RPMs you prefer and extract more power through your prop.

Looking at the fuel map of most “correctly propped” engines there is a lot of unused horsepower available at cruising RPMs and I think that’s where the integral system is really brilliant. Yes you can probably do similar yourself- install a pyrometer and large alternator with manual controller of output so you can turn up the power to the right amount to correctly load the engine. But I think this system does this automatically.

As for incremental fuel burn, a lot of fuel burn at an RPM is just overcoming frictional losses so possibly loading engine properly for a given RPM actually doesn’t use as much extra fuel as one would calculate.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by rom

Sorry if I missed the answer but this thread has become hard to read... Do we have any more details on that particular technical point ? Say my engine is reving 2000RPM, how does the Integrel system know I am gently cruising on flat water or struggling upwind with 40kts of wind and 4 meters sea ?

It can’t know of course, but it could interpolate this data from an engine with a Canbus and do so very well depending on how many sensors it has, but fuel flow and RPM will determine load pretty well. But that takes a common rail motor, because with a common rail motor you know injector pulse width, and if fuel pressure is known then you know fuel flow.
I know no sensor that you can determine fuel flow with with a mechanically injected engine, except of course a fuel flow meter, but haven’t seen one that is incorporated into a Canbus, but I’ve not seen all of course and it’s certainly possible, fuel flow is almost always calculated, even on all cars that show you your MPG. It’s not measured, but calculated, but with some real surprising accuracy.

If you have an old fashioned mechanically injected engine, then to be truthful it’s just going to be a guess, in my opinion. I would guess you tell it HP, and if it has an RPM tap it can guess what the average load vs max tolerable load and adjust for something in between there, but it can’t know.
Unless of course you install a pyrometer, AKA EGT Gauge, if exhaust temp is known, then how hard the engine is working can be known, because of course the harder it works, the higher the EGT.
If it’s coupled to an EGT then it could vary load to maintain under a set EGT point.
So it could “know” especially if it incorporates an EGT Gauge of it does, then in truth my opinion of it would change, if it monitors EGT, then it’s a pretty good piece of kit in my opinion.

Seeing as how most of us have a tendency to operate at a pretty set RPM, you really could do the same or similar with a Balmar 614 or so and use belt manager, but your going to be guessing without a pyrometer, and they aren’t rocket science and they aren’t all that expensive either.
I’ve installed a great many myself, usually in aircraft, but to be honest exactly where and how to do so with a water cooled exhaust manifold has me a little baffled, if I were to do so, I believe I’d try calling Yanmar and find where is the recommended point to drill.

Now a little more about that chart that I said was real and is in every Yanmar manual. First it’s interpolated, it is not your engine in your boat. Most of those type of charts don’t take into account loads from the two water pumps and they obviously can’t alternator load.
Every load narrows the two curves of the chart, but the biggest and most important thing that isn’t taken into account is the exhaust system, as of course that varies for each manufacturer, The engine manufacturer has guide lines of course and I have even heard of the back pressure being measured before Warranty is signed off on, but a water cooled exhaust is by nature very restrictive and that restriction will further close that gap between applied load and most efficient load,
So that gap isn’t as likely to be as big as you think.

Think of that gap as your safety margin, because that is exactly what it is, now determine just how deep into the safety margin your comfortable operating in.

[darylat8750]

a64, Two points:

One is this that many times while cruising people motor sail. To move faster in light winds, point higher or what ever. Under those situations they are typically under propped. Perfect situation for large alternator use.

Two is that the percentage of available torque (as in not being absorbed by the propeller) goes up in the mid rpm range compared to max rpm. Look at the power curve of an engine driving a boat propeller. (Edit: "The propeller curve is real, it’s not some marketing magic. Any Yanmar manual shows it.
On edit, I should note though that boat is under propped, reason is the prop curve should intersect the engine curve at max RPM, it it intersects lower, your over propped, and most boats are a little over propped." This is exactly what Nigel is trying to adjust for. The other thing he is selling it the added efficiency of 48 volts inside the alternator.)

While I like the concept of the fancy alternator I just can't see that the cost makes practical sense. A bus type alternator and an exhaust temperature gauge is less expensive, can be fixed anywhere and an EGT is a good thing to have on any diesel engine anyway. (Especially if you can look at individual cylinders to compare.)

[Cdn]

Originally Posted by mcarthur

This website shows A$18,000 excluding installation, excluding battery pack and excluding charger. That's US$12,500 or so.

This website shows 18,000gbp including the battery pack and presumably charger. That's US$23,300.

Those are pretty big numbers for the equivalent of a 6-7kW genset. They're slightly better than a pure DC genset, but more than an AC. Definitely not something just to install because you'd like to try it! But if your genset is dead, and you have a small motor, it may well be worth the weight/space savings - and there may even be fuel/$ savings too.

• Genset working now? Don't change it unless you have big $ and you have very weight sensitive multihull.
• Mid-large motor(s)? Don't do it - go with large alternator(s) at about $2-4,000.
• Sailing boat with small motors, no genset or nearly failing... - it becomes a possible choice.

As an upcoming potential customer, the costs above (if correct) show why I cannot consider this device (even though I want to consider it). For $12500 USD, I can get a 4.8kw genset installed by the boat builder. That gives me the redundancy of a second genset. I will use it to charge my 1200amph bank of lithium batteries of which I will run my AC, Hot Water Heater, Watermaker etc. I dont take the cost of the house batteries into consideration as I want 1200amph regardless if I have a genset or integrel. I will also have solar on top of my bimini for small amount of charging during the day.

When the bank gets down to 10%, I will run genset at full load to charge the battery bank back up.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by darylat8750

a64, Two points:

One is this that many times while cruising people motor sail. To move faster in light winds, point higher or what ever. Under those situations they are typically under propped. Perfect situation for large alternator use.

Two is that the percentage of available torque (as in not being absorbed by the propeller) goes up in the mid rpm range compared to max rpm. Look at the power curve of an engine driving a boat propeller. (Edit: "The propeller curve is real, it’s not some marketing magic. Any Yanmar manual shows it.
On edit, I should note though that boat is under propped, reason is the prop curve should intersect the engine curve at max RPM, it it intersects lower, your over propped, and most boats are a little over propped." This is exactly what Nigel is trying to adjust for. The other thing he is selling it the added efficiency of 48 volts inside the alternator.)

While I like the concept of the fancy alternator I just can't see that the cost makes practical sense. A bus type alternator and an exhaust temperature gauge is less expensive, can be fixed anywhere and an EGT is a good thing to have on any diesel engine anyway. (Especially if you can look at individual cylinders to compare.)

Yeah, see I have an Island Packet. Now to me it’s a great boat, ticks most of my boxes, but it’s not the fastest boat out there, so I very often motor sail truth be known, you see I’d rather be motor sailing in two to three ft seas than sailing in six to eight.
That is where the Autoprop pays for itself, I can honestly be sailing at four kts, and crank the motor, bump it to 1,000 RPM and be sailing close to hull speed, only because the Autoprop will increase pitch to load the motor, regardless of boat speed. With a normal prop, 1000 RPM wouldn’t add much speed at all, because the prop wouldn’t be providing much thrust.
I have a 165 amp alternator and due to the way I have it set up, belt manager set at 4 and the alt temp set at 95c it only will provide 90 amps continuously, but you know that’s a lot, and between the alternator load and the prop increasing pitch to load the motor, at 1000 To 1200 RPM the motor reaches full operating temp, both water and oil temp.

When motor sailing at low RPM my house load may be as high as 15 amps with autopilot, Radar etc, but that still leaves 75 going into the bank on top of what my Solar is making, in short I have no need of more power. Heck most people consider a 60 amp charger big, and I’ve got 90 coming out of the alternator, plus Solar of course

So why would you want more? To run air conditioning while your sailing?

But to give the Devil his due, having too much power available is like having too much money I guess, I don’t see it as a problem, and who knows maybe you can use it.
So while I don’t need this thing, maybe others will, but personally I think it comes at too high a price point, bu then I didn’t buy a new over 1 Million dollar boat either, and I assume that’s the market.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Yeah, see I have an Island Packet. Now to me it’s a great boat, ticks most of my boxes, but it’s not the fastest boat out there, so I very often motor sail truth be known, you see I’d rather be motor sailing in two to three ft seas than sailing in six to eight.
That is where the Autoprop pays for itself, I can honestly be sailing at four kts, and crank the motor, bump it to 1,000 RPM and be sailing close to hull speed, only because the Autoprop will increase pitch to load the motor, regardless of boat speed. With a normal prop, 1000 RPM wouldn’t add much speed at all, because the prop wouldn’t be providing much thrust.
I have a 165 amp alternator and due to the way I have it set up, belt manager set at 4 and the alt temp set at 95c it only will provide 90 amps continuously, but you know that’s a lot, and between the alternator load and the prop increasing pitch to load the motor, at 1000 To 1200 RPM the motor reaches full operating temp, both water and oil temp.

When motor sailing at low RPM my house load may be as high as 15 amps with autopilot, Radar etc, but that still leaves 75 going into the bank on top of what my Solar is making, in short I have no need of more power. Heck most people consider a 60 amp charger big, and I’ve got 90 coming out of the alternator, plus Solar of course

So why would you want more? To run air conditioning while your sailing?

But to give the Devil his due, having too much power available is like having too much money I guess, I don’t see it as a problem, and who knows maybe you can use it.
So while I don’t need this thing, maybe others will, but personally I think it comes at too high a price point, bu then I didn’t buy a new over 1 Million dollar boat either, and I assume that’s the market.

As someone above wrote, there is a lot of daylight between the propeller curve and max hp curve at normal cruising speeds; these curves only come together near or at redline.


Using that power is nearly free because the hours of amortization and maintenance have already been paid for, and you are likely getting into a better part of the fuel map, so although of course you do burn more fuel for more power it will not be proportionately more, and it might be almost unmeasurable.


I would think it would almost trivially simple to devise an alternator regulator which would automatically turn down the field current if the engine starts to get overloaded. For a fixed prop engine you could do it according to RPM; for a boat with an Autoprop you could do it with a pyrometer. Or for any boat for that matter -- a single input, EGT, would be all you would need to know, to know when to turn down the alternator.


I guess you could regulate the other end that way too -- switch on a dummy load if the EGT is too low.


This would be quite a bit cheaper than $20k.

[rom]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

I would think it would almost trivially simple to devise an alternator regulator which would automatically turn down the field current if the engine starts to get overloaded. For a fixed prop engine you could do it according to RPM

You are not always motoring on flat seas with zero wind, are you ?

[malbert73]

Having put an EGT on my Beta - prob best thing I’ve done since I’m deliberately a little overpropped. I can get 7 knots at 1800 rpm and top out at 2450. And the engine is loaded at 1800 with an EGT around 500F. But, add wind and waves and I can add throttle if I need to and monitor EGT and see where the sweet spot of load is- usually around a quiet 1900-2000 which gets me 6.5 kts even into a pretty stiff headwind.
I can also monitor for underloading which is also critical. So after motorsailing for a while I can run it up.
So I think an EGT would be critical for anyone wanting to pull lots of amps off of their propulsion engine

[Q Xopa]

[QUOTE=a64pilot;3007334exactly where and how to do so with a water cooled exhaust manifold has me a little baffled, if I were to do so, I believe I’d try calling Yanmar and find where is the recommended point to drill.

[/QUOTE]

I cant remember which motor you have, but on my 4JH4-TE I think the the plug '11 and copper casket 10' are a port for installing EGT probes. It's a nice Stainless plug.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

As someone above wrote, there is a lot of daylight between the propeller curve and max hp curve at normal cruising speeds; these curves only come together near or at redline.


Using that power is nearly free because the hours of amortization and maintenance have already been paid for, and you are likely getting into a better part of the fuel map, so although of course you do burn more fuel for more power it will not be proportionately more, and it might be almost unmeasurable.


I would think it would almost trivially simple to devise an alternator regulator which would automatically turn down the field current if the engine starts to get overloaded. For a fixed prop engine you could do it according to RPM; for a boat with an Autoprop you could do it with a pyrometer. Or for any boat for that matter -- a single input, EGT, would be all you would need to know, to know when to turn down the alternator.


I guess you could regulate the other end that way too -- switch on a dummy load if the EGT is too low.


This would be quite a bit cheaper than $20k.

Depending on engine size and how your propped, there isn’t as much space between those curves as you may think, and it will differ from boat to boat due to exhaust restriction.
However I believe from just talking to a few the average cruiser that has been out a while and has re-propped their boat tends to over prop a bit, and cruise lower RPM, burn a little less fuel but the noise and vibration is much lower. But that gap gets even smaller if they do, a little over propping as long as your not that guy that believes you need to run the snot out of a Diesel to make one last is fine. If you over prop you give up that last third of the throttle except for an emergency.
However my point is or was that you can fill that gap if you want to with one or two large alternators, but you should monitor for overloading if you do, you don’t blow black smoke until seriously overloaded so that’s not a good way. A Pyrometer is probably the easiest and cheapest way, but those numbers will vary according to where it’s mounted.
On my truck I didn’t want to continuously Cruise above 900 to 1000 and I had it set so that at 1400 it would de fuel to stock levels at 1400, the alloy pistons are made from melt at 1400, but the piston is never as hot as the exhaust gas, but I figured that was pushing it as hard as I wanted to, it was a “hopped up” motor as you can probably guess.

I think stock trim it would pull as a max about 1000 EGT, and 23 lbs of boost, I turned the boost up to 32 lbs.

So to determine your cruise temp I’d run it hard without much alternator load, find the hottest it got and back off a couple of hundred degrees, and use that as your max for cruise. I like a thick layer of fudge.

Interestingly on my truck they way it would get real high EGT was pulling a hill but not downshifting, to lower the EGT push the pedal down and force a downshift and temp would drop drastically.
It was of course overloaded until it downshifted.

[Dockhead]

With a fixed prop it doesn't matter.

Originally Posted by rom

You are not always motoring on flat seas with zero wind, are you ?

[Q Xopa]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

With a fixed prop it doesn't matter.

Agreed, with a fixed prop your RPM determines your Power output. Differing sea states will change your speed, so for the same RPM/ power your speed will decrease with bigger seas. So if you want to maintain your speed you will need increase RPM/ power.