Trojan Industrial Batteries

[john61ct]

It may give a genuine advantage, dunno.

But nothing to do with the unique "Carbon Foam" tech in Firefly, that I do know.

With FLA, besides physical form factor to fit the install space, long as I trust the maker wrt true deep cycling, I just go with low cost per AH.

Default to Duracell (actually Deka/East Penn) FLA deep cycle golf cart batteries, 2x6V, around $200 per 200+AH pair from BatteriesPlus or Sam's Club.

Would go T-105s if they're within say 15% of the same price, or closer driving distance.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

It may give a genuine advantage, dunno.

But nothing to do with the unique "Carbon Foam" tech in Firefly, that I do know.

With FLA, besides physical form factor to fit the install space, long as I trust the maker wrt true deep cycling, I just go with low cost per AH.

Default to Duracell (actually Deka/East Penn) FLA deep cycle golf cart batteries, 2x6V, around $200 per 200+AH pair from BatteriesPlus or Sam's Club.

Would go T-105s if they're within say 15% of the same price, or closer driving distance.

Well, I don't think that every AH of capacity in lead acid is equal to every other AH -- not by a long shot. Dual purpose batteries, as I know from hard experience, just fall apart within a few dozen cycles, in real off grid use. Those cheap AH's are not cheap at all, for that purpose. And I think it may well be the same thing between golf cart batts and really heavy duty L-16's. Even the claims of Trojan -- which we now know you can't believe, but you should be able to compare them at least RELATIVE to one another from the same manufacturer, are very different between one so-called "deep cycle" battery and another.


I would think that these big massive ones ought to stand up a lot better than golf cart batts and might very well cost less per cycle.



It would be great to be able to see some real testing of different batteries, in realistic conditions like our use cases. I think we just don't have any useful information.


I would definitely be considering Fireflies, those 2 volt cells, IF I could even buy them here, and IF I had space for them, and I might consider those big Trojans, too.

[kmacdonald]

I think Trojans life cycle figures are accurate under the conditions that they were tested. Those conditions are not the same use profile as we have and therefore don't match. Like you say, it's relative and if one battery gets twice the cycles under lab conditions I would expect them to get some where near twice the cycles in our usage. That may not be exactly true but I'd bet it's close enough for comparison sake.

[kmacdonald]

It appears that if you want the same cycle life from LA batteries as you get from LFP, the LA option is going to really cost you in extra weight. That may not matter so much for a big cruiser but for the smaller cruising boat it is significant.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Well, I don't think that every AH of capacity in lead acid is equal to every other AH -- not by a long shot. Dual purpose batteries, as I know from hard experience, just fall apart within a few dozen cycles, in real off grid use. Those cheap AH's are not cheap at all, for that purpose.

If you read what I wrote, you'll see I 100% agree with that.

** as long as I trust the maker wrt true deep cycling**

was the key qualification.


> And I think it may well be the same thing between golf cart batts and really heavy duty L-16's.

> I would think that these big massive ones ought to stand up a lot better than golf cart batts and might very well cost less per cycle.


No, not at all, in fact I was surprised when Maine Sail stated the L16's are just as robust as T-105s.

Check the DoD vs lifecycle charts and compare weight per AH.

And given higher failure rates and their overblown marketing fluff in recent years, my opinion is that Trojan may be on the decline.

I see the Deka branded equivalents as just as good now, same with Crown and Superior.

Nothing touches the value of those Duracell GCs, $ per AH per year, unless LFP can indeed last decades.

With proper care.

Fireflies, yes but only good value at 5x the cost, when PSOC abuse is unavoidable and LFP considered too risky.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

If you read what I wrote, you'll see I 100% agree with that.

** as long as I trust the maker wrt true deep cycling**

was the key qualification.


> And I think it may well be the same thing between golf cart batts and really heavy duty L-16's.

> I would think that these big massive ones ought to stand up a lot better than golf cart batts and might very well cost less per cycle.


No, not at all, in fact I was surprised when Maine Sail stated the L16's are just as robust as T-105s.

Check the DoD vs lifecycle charts and compare weight per AH.

And given higher failure rates and their overblown marketing fluff in recent years, my opinion is that Trojan may be on the decline.

I see the Deka branded equivalents as just as good now, same with Crown and Superior.

Nothing touches the value of those Duracell GCs, $ per AH per year, unless LFP can indeed last decades.

With proper care.

Fireflies, yes but only good value at 5x the cost, when PSOC abuse is unavoidable and LFP considered too risky.

OK, but don't Trojan CLAIM (at least) about double the cycle life from those new L-16's, compared to T-105? The claim could be nonsense -- I don't know.



Concerning Fireflies -- yes, they seem to be more expensive per usable amp hour than lithium, so I guess only make sense if a lithium installation will be prohibitively expensive or if a person doesn't want to figure out or deal with the different operating regime of lithium. But that's probably a large audience.

[evm1024]

I got some information back from the guy I know who uses industrial batteries on his boat. He is a highly respected boat builder that specializes in full restorations. He knows his stuff.

Currently, he just replaced a set of 12 industrial batteries (24 volt system, 2 volt cells) with some EnerSys 2 volt, 100 AH cells.

The cost around $400 each so he has around $4800 plus shipping into them.

The specs are 1200 cycles to 50% DOD.

He does also recommend Bulldog battery corp 2 volt 100 ah cells at $332 each. If I recall right he was not aware of those at the time he ordered his replacements.

He also recommends the Firefly 2 volt 142 ah cells at $659 each. If you can afford it.

He uses a Magnum - True Sine-wave - 2500 Inverter charger which has a 120 AMP charger. in conjunction with Balmar regulator and a 210 AMP Balmar alternator. No solar, no wind.


His use patterns are typical for a (very active) Columbia River boater. Half a dozen weekend cruises a year, a 3 week cruise up to Canada yearly, and in his case out sailing almost every weekend.

His last set of batteries lasted 16 years. He estimated that he gets 60 cycles per year and that the 1200 cycle count is in line with his (16 * 60) 960 cycle life from his last set of batteries.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by evm1024

I got some information back from the guy I know who uses industrial batteries on his boat. He is a highly respected boat builder that specializes in full restorations. He knows his stuff.

Currently, he just replaced a set of 12 industrial batteries (24 volt system, 2 volt cells) with some EnerSys 2 volt, 100 AH cells.

The cost around $400 each so he has around $4800 plus shipping into them.

The specs are 1200 cycles to 50% DOD.

He does also recommend Bulldog battery corp 2 volt 100 ah cells at $332 each. If I recall right he was not aware of those at the time he ordered his replacements.

He also recommends the Firefly 2 volt 142 ah cells at $659 each. If you can afford it.

He uses a Magnum - True Sine-wave - 2500 Inverter charger which has a 120 AMP charger. in conjunction with Balmar regulator and a 210 AMP Balmar alternator. No solar, no wind.


His use patterns are typical for a (very active) Columbia River boater. Half a dozen weekend cruises a year, a 3 week cruise up to Canada yearly, and in his case out sailing almost every weekend.

His last set of batteries lasted 16 years. He estimated that he gets 60 cycles per year and that the 1200 cycle count is in line with his (16 * 60) 960 cycle life from his last set of batteries.

Use patterns differ a lot, don't they! I cycle my batteries at least 200 times a year.



The economics of this do not compare favorably to lithium.


I can buy 400 amp/hours (@24v) of Winston cells for €3500, which is about $4000, or $10 per nominal amp/hour (@24v). If the Firefly batts cost what you say, that's nearly $8000 for a 142 amp/hour (@24v) bank, or $56 per amp/hour. Yowza! You can buy a lot of BMS and system mods for that price difference.


The other industrial lead-acid batts are even worse.

[evm1024]

Originally Posted by Dockhead

Use patterns differ a lot, don't they! I cycle my batteries at least 200 times a year.



The economics of this do not compare favorably to lithium.


I can buy 400 amp/hours (@24v) of Winston cells for €3500, which is about $4000, or $10 per nominal amp/hour (@24v). If the Firefly batts cost what you say, that's nearly $8000 for a 142 amp/hour (@24v) bank, or $56 per amp/hour. Yowza! You can buy a lot of BMS and system mods for that price difference.


The other industrial lead-acid batts are even worse.

Yes, I agree. I looked at used forklift batteries when I was figuring out what to replace my failing T-105's with. The used market has some good deals if you get a battery that has been fully tested. But then again they are used.

In the end I elected for 700 ah LiFePO4 and have not regretted that at all. Also, the LiFePO4 was not much different from typical used forklift batteries. I did get a good deal on them.

We expect to head out for a 5 year cruise starting in a year or 2. I expect that my lithium bank will be going strong at the end of that cruise. We have 4 years into them now.

My friend has his industrial batteries in the keel. Being a boat builder he can do that.

[john61ct]

In my market $500 / 100AH is much cheaper than a quality LFP bank, even DIY.

Delivery costs are a huge factor, plus risk of overseas direct if a warranty return is required.

We are rarely rational actors despite economic theory.

[kmacdonald]

The Trojan Solar Industrial (SIND 06 610) rated at 472 Ah @ 6V and 220 lbs each, 3600 cycles @50% DOD, is about $500. Two for $1000. That's $2.12/Ah. Thats way less than AGM at about 2.65 Ah. It's a great deal if you can tolerate the weight.
Need more capacity? SIND 06 920 @ 708 Ah and 315 lbs each. $800 each or $1600 for 708 Ah @ 12V and $2.26 /Ah

[john61ct]

Bank gets heavier than any ICE aboard

8-)

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Bank gets heavier than any ICE aboard

8-)

Yep. Another huge plus for lithium.

I wish Trojan made a 200 and 300 Ah industrial battery.

[Compass790]

We have a pair of Trojan 225 amp 6v batteries in series. Very happy with them but only high current draw is starting which is almost instant so cant comment on sustained load.
Do use a fair bit of water but were old when we got them.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by Compass790

We have a pair of Trojan 225 amp 6v batteries in series. Very happy with them but only high current draw is starting which is almost instant so cant comment on sustained load.
Do use a fair bit of water but were old when we got them.

CORRECTION: Meant to say Crown 225 amp batteries that we have.