Trojan Industrial Batteries

[kmacdonald]

Has anyone used Trojan Industrial Batteries? They claim a 3600 cycle life at 50% DOD. The Trojan Solar Premium Line claims a cycle life of 1900 cycles @ 50% DOD. These could be a good alternative to LFP at a much reduced cost. It is interesting to note that Trojan states the maximum charge current is 13% of the 20 hour capacity and the maximum absorption phase time at 14.7 (Solar Premium Line) volts is 4 hours. That's about 49 amps for a 377 Ah bank, much less than a lot of people strive for. This tends to support MainSails testing that shows larger alternators don't decrease total charge time by a significant amount. It really makes you wonder if the high output alternators are reducing battery life. The 4 hour max absorption charge time would require a programmable external regulator.

Rolls has similar batteries also.

Disclosure: I have no financial interests in Trojan, Rolls, and I don't sell batteries or services.

[john61ct]

These are high quality, but not very different from other deep cycle lead.

Industrial uses are not off-grid, so assume overnight mains charging.

The max Absorb is for those not stopping charging based on spec'd trailing amps, at very low (solar) current rates may need to be less.

The max rate is what they accept, not the max you can have available.

Easy enough to contact their tech support to get Qs answered.

[txg]

We do have exactly these L16 Trojan Batteries (377Ah) you're talking about since March this year living aboard full time, mostly at anchor.



http://www.trojanbattery.com/product/spre_06_415/



They are working well but are quite high internal resistance when discharging with higher loads (we do use an electric plate that pulls 130amps out of the inverter which makes the voltage sag down below 12v in a very short time. In our case this could be because we had some damage on them when we got them shipped. I started a thread about that problem here:


http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/...ad-198995.html


Because of the low charge currents that Trojan recommends and because of the batteries working perfectly fine except for the low voltage under load i do currently believe that their high internal resistance is just normal and our batteries didn't get damaged. I had to optimize the wiring of our VHF or else it would switch to low power transmit when calling while running the inverter because of low voltage.



We mostly charge them with 500Wp solar (maxing out at about 30-32amps) but also run the engine when needed. The engine charges at up to 100amps, but current normally goes down quickly.



Our votronic mppt solar controllers calculate the absorption time length based on the battery voltage in the morning when charging begins, if i remember right it is between one and four hours, so that is a good fit.



It would be really interesting to hear experiences of someone else with these batteries, especially with high current loads.

[kmacdonald]

I think a C/3 load is a lot for a LA battery and would expect a lot of voltage sag. Don't know exactly how much but enough to cause problems with electronics. This looks like another big plus for LFP.

[john61ct]

Yes 130A for more than a few seconds is a **very** high load for FLA.

LFP would be ideal but crazy complicated and/or very expensive.

Quality AGM would do better, yes more expensive but simpler.

[txg]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I think a C/3 load is a lot for a LA battery and would expect a lot of voltage sag. Don't know exactly how much but enough to cause problems with electronics. This looks like another big plus for LFP.

Our SPRE 06 415 bank replaced a bank made out of two Victron 12V 110Ah AGMs. My basic thinking was that in our case the flooded bank should be about as good as the AGM bank at the same currents because of nearly twice the size. But it looks like that is not the case, our 220Ah AGM bank had much less voltage drop at >100amps load. This was the case even when the bank was three years old and due for replacement because of only about 50% of former capacity left.

[kmacdonald]

Generally speaking deep cycle batteries have thicker plates, more lead, more internal resistance and are not designed for high current loads like starting batteries. My guess is that the Trojans are a true deep cycle battery and the AGM's you had were more of a hybrid, deep discharge-starting battery. Can you compare the CCA's of the two batteries if they are listed?

[john61ct]

No for deep cycling use quality AGM are inherently better at supporting high discharge rates with less V sag, even at smaller AH sizes.

Cranking even large engines becomes a trivial load for either FLA or any lead once you get up to high AH capacities, CCA becomes irrelevant.

[txg]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Generally speaking deep cycle batteries have thicker plates, more lead, more internal resistance and are not designed for high current loads like starting batteries. My guess is that the Trojans are a true deep cycle battery and the AGM's you had were more of a hybrid, deep discharge-starting battery. Can you compare the CCA's of the two batteries if they are listed?

This is probably true. The Victron AGMs are listed at 500CCA for a single battery, so the two of them in parallel would be 1000CCA. Trojan doesn't publish CCA numbers for these batteries which also speaks for not being designed for high current loads.



Anyways, we simply got used to the low voltages under higher loads. The inverter still runs fine with the voltage sag and so everything is fine for now.



Another thing i wasn't sure about when switching from AGM to flooded was the need of constant watering. In reality, this is not so much of a problem. When cycled daily, our bank loses about 3mm (1/8th of an inch) of water per month, and there is still plenty left on top of the plates. It would probably be fine to add water only every three months.

[john61ct]

Odyssey 2150 are a good example, marketed as dual use, but unlike 99.99% of the rest does not mean any compromise in their deep cycling abilities.

Most dual use are lousy for true deep cycling, just a beefed up Starter batt.

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by john61ct

No for deep cycling use quality AGM are inherently better at supporting high discharge rates with less V sag, even at smaller AH sizes.

Cranking even large engines becomes a trivial load for either FLA or any lead once you get up to high AH capacities, CCA becomes irrelevant.

Yep, AGM's are much better at high loads.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by txg

Trojan doesn't publish CCA numbers for these batteries which also speaks for not being designed for high current loads.

Many mfg don't show CCA numbers because that has come to mean "not really for deep cycling" to the marketplace.

> Anyways, we simply got used to the low voltages under higher loads. The inverter still runs fine with the voltage sag and so everything is fine for now.

You're OK then.

Being so robust will likely last longer than AGM as well, and certainly cheaper.

Heavy suckers though!

Same AH in T-105s would likely be similar, easier to replace in remote locations, and def easier to handle.

[txg]

Originally Posted by john61ct

Heavy suckers though!

Same AH in T-105s would likely be similar, easier to replace in remote locations, and def easier to handle.

Yes, but with the L16 we were able to put nearly twice the capacity in the same space that was previously populated with two G31. We only had to lower the bottom support to nearly hull-level and raise the nav station seat about two centimeters.


Using T-105 would have meant to find a new space and redo all the wiring that was already done new in 2015 when installing the previous bank, and 2/0 wire is everything but cheap when you're in the caribbean.

[masonc]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

Has anyone used Trojan Industrial Batteries?

I have 8 x IND17 for my house, they are very heavy tough batteries. They have a voltage profile that is lower than other LA batteries, so the charging parameters need careful research.
I have T-105s on my boat, during last summer's haul out they sat completely discharged as the charge controller failed. I ordered replacements but tried fo make those liat by carefully recharging, ended up leaving the new ones at home as the old ones recovered completely. In my experience, if you charge them properly, they are as good as LA gets.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by john61ct

These are high quality, but not very different from other deep cycle lead.

Industrial uses are not off-grid, so assume overnight mains charging.

The max Absorb is for those not stopping charging based on spec'd trailing amps, at very low (solar) current rates may need to be less.

The max rate is what they accept, not the max you can have available.

Easy enough to contact their tech support to get Qs answered.

What about the use of carbon in these? Just a gimmick? Or not?