Troubleshooting solar setup... or troubleshooting my troubleshooting!!

[basssears]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

basssears, we would love to hear about any progress / clues. In spite of our technical bickering, we would all really like to see you get this puzzle figured out.

Thanks Paul, little reluctant to wade back in at this point.


I suspect the panels all have issues of varying degrees. I tested panel #1 (once one of my winners at 23 watts according to the controller) from the back of the junction box straight to the battery... it did (eventually) bring the (non deep cycle) truck battery up in voltage so it is producing, but I have no "known good" panel to compare times to so don't know how well it's producing. I didn't really have any wires left to jiggle or wiggle to try to improve things so there was no modification of my output that way.



When I introduced the controller to the circuit, it reported 12-14 watts coming from the panel... without the controller, going straight from junction to battery the voltage was 12.1 volts and the current per clamp on meter was 0.9-1.0 amps, so seems the output reported by the controller is accurate.


Next week might be one last "test all four" marathon...

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by basssears

Thanks Paul, little reluctant to wade back in at this point.


I suspect the panels all have issues of varying degrees. I tested panel #1 (once one of my winners at 23 watts according to the controller) from the back of the junction box straight to the battery... it did (eventually) bring the (non deep cycle) truck battery up in voltage so it is producing, but I have no "known good" panel to compare times to so don't know how well it's producing. I didn't really have any wires left to jiggle or wiggle to try to improve things so there was no modification of my output that way.



When I introduced the controller to the circuit, it reported 12-14 watts coming from the panel... without the controller, going straight from junction to battery the voltage was 12.1 volts and the current per clamp on meter was 0.9-1.0 amps, so seems the output reported by the controller is accurate.


Next week might be one last "test all four" marathon...

It's very rare that all of something is bad. It's usually one thing not four. (I haven't inspected your drilled holes though)

My point earlier was meant to convey that proper troubleshooting technique is the way to fix a problem rapidly rather than theorizing all day which is why we have tech's repairing things and engineers designing them.

Don't hiring an engineer to maintain a system because it will take him forever to fix it

Once again. 4 panels, one controller, batteries, wire and connections.

It ain't rocket science and you do not need to be a solar or electrical engineer to fix your problem

[basssears]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Once again. 4 panels, one controller, batteries, wire and connections.

It ain't rocket science and you do not need to be a solar or electrical engineer to fix your problem

And that is why I am done posting updates.

[thomm225]

Originally Posted by basssears

And that is why I am done posting updates.

We have 18 complex systems that cannot be down more that 8-12 hours per month which is why I probably shouldn't comment on these posts.

Our UPS's for example have 48 (twelve volt ) batteries per system/trainer or more. Power is both 60 and 400 HZ. Then you have the I/O, control loading, visuals, and the software to include virus scans, update patches etc. (when there's a problem is it hardware or software?)

Please do not take it personally, and enjoy the troubleshooting. You're doing a fine job..

Btw, FYI, the tech life isn't an easy one. You make a mistake troubleshooting and your coworkers will be on you for a week or more

[Ocean Sky]

Just finished reading this complete thread...very interesting but as a complete novice i still not sure what to do first ..

We have 4x85w fixed Panels ,plus 2x regulators , a NC25A-12v + a Nature Power 8A.

We normally leave the two rear panels 'on' when leaving the boat for a couple of weeks,and has been working fine for the last year.With the regulators switching on/off as necessary.

Last time when we returned the main AGM batteries were down to around 11.5V,and so decided to leave both the 2 front panels 'on' together with the 2 rear ones when we left the boat 3 weeks ago.

Just returned to the boat yesterday and the solar ammeter is now showing no output at all from both front and rear sets of panels ,zero. The main AGM batteries were again at around 11.5V but quickly went back up to 13.0 V when connected to shore power.

They have settled down at 12.6V on the ProNautic 12.30P in the ready condition.

Is it likely that all 4 panels have suddenly stopped working?

I am not even at all handy with a multimeter even ...so it is a bit daunting to start the troubleshooting on this.

Any suggestions would be very appreciated,preferable keeping it as simple as possible in technical terms.

Thanks guys. Maybe i should start a new thread ?

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by Ocean Sky

Just finished reading this complete thread...very interesting but as a complete novice i still not sure what to do first ..

We have 4x85w fixed Panels ,plus 2x regulators , a NC25A-12v + a Nature Power 8A.

We normally leave the two rear panels 'on' when leaving the boat for a couple of weeks,and has been working fine for the last year.With the regulators switching on/off as necessary.

Last time when we returned the main AGM batteries were down to around 11.5V,and so decided to leave both the 2 front panels 'on' together with the 2 rear ones when we left the boat 3 weeks ago.

Just returned to the boat yesterday and the solar ammeter is now showing no output at all from both front and rear sets of panels ,zero. The main AGM batteries were again at around 11.5V but quickly went back up to 13.0 V when connected to shore power.

They have settled down at 12.6V on the ProNautic 12.30P in the ready condition.

Is it likely that all 4 panels have suddenly stopped working?

I am not even at all handy with a multimeter even ...so it is a bit daunting to start the troubleshooting on this.

Any suggestions would be very appreciated,preferable keeping it as simple as possible in technical terms.

Thanks guys. Maybe i should start a new thread ?

Start a thread if you like, but personally, I have no problem with you keeping it in this one -- it's a similar sort of problem.

It does seem unlikely that two isolated panel/controller systems would fail at the same time. And this sounds like a hard failure. Is there *any* load (other than battery monitors) on the AGMs when you are away from the boat? Knowing this would help us use that 11.5V reading to figure out what is going on.

Since you aren't comfortable with multimeters, I would look for a common point of failure first. How are the outputs of the two controllers connected to the batteries? Is there a common fuse or breaker that may have popped? If so, you should look for the reason it popped, but try replacing/resetting it and see if you get some charging again. There could also be a bad connection between the controllers and the batteries.

And we would be happy to help you use your voltmeter to troubleshoot. It's really not that hard.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by basssears

And that is why I am done posting updates.

Please do post updates. We all learn from the troubleshooting process, and you never know -- we might be able to help.

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by thomm225

Don't hiring an engineer to maintain a system because it will take him forever to fix it

I began as a hobbyist, then a test and repair technician, and eventually became an engineer. I do agree that some "pure" engineers have a distressing lack of hands-on experience.

[CatNewBee]

well, there are 2 questions to be answered.

1. why is the voltage that low. Any loads left on that drain the battery?

2. Why there is no charge current from solar, you have 2 independent solar systems, both seem not to be connected to the battery or not charging.

One possible answer could be, you forgot to turn off a load, that drains more power than solar can recharge. Or simply you have some connections (corrosion), switches or fuses that prevent significant charge current from solar. Also possible, panels had been partially shaded when you check the current.

You need a Multimeter to check Voltage outputs at different points (voltage drop along the connection when a current flows), at the panels, at the controller input and output and at the battery. Then also measure the currents and identify possible loads.

[Ocean Sky]

Originally Posted by Paul Elliott

Start a thread if you like, but personally, I have no problem with you keeping it in this one -- it's a similar sort of problem.

It does seem unlikely that two isolated panel/controller systems would fail at the same time. And this sounds like a hard failure. Is there *any* load (other than battery monitors) on the AGMs when you are away from the boat? Knowing this would help us use that 11.5V reading to figure out what is going on.

Since you aren't comfortable with multimeters, I would look for a common point of failure first. How are the outputs of the two controllers connected to the batteries? Is there a common fuse or breaker that may have popped? If so, you should look for the reason it popped, but try replacing/resetting it and see if you get some charging again. There could also be a bad connection between the controllers and the batteries.

And we would be happy to help you use your voltmeter to troubleshoot. It's really not that hard.

Hi Paul,thanks for you welcome input,

The only load would be the 4x bilge pumps which are left on auto.Thinking back we did leave a hatch open by mistake over the galley when we last left the boat ,when we got back now there was still some residual water left in the bilge ,so i guess there could have been quite a bit of power draw by that bilge pump,as there was a fair bit of rain on some days.

here is a pic of the set up with the main controllers,nothing was tripped but i have reset everything again.

There is a black fuse there on the bottom right of the pic which i inspected on the Battery Sensing to + Battery and it still seems ok with the wire intact

PS There is a breaker at the bottom of the pic , which seems a bit weird as when it is 'up' which i assume is 'on' there is a red square, when i select it down that cuts the power to the battery charger and it changes to 'green'.But i guess this has nothing to do with the solar power issue as it is always disconnected when we leave the boat .And is probably totally normal /correct.

There is another controller the Nature 8amp ,which i have just connected to another fixed but portable Solar panel of 40W,this seems to be working fine and is giving a couple of amps charge to the batteries which are at 12.2V at the moment..I think this is completely separate from the main controller. It is plugged into a socket outside in the cockpit with a lead to position it on the hard roof of the cockpit,at the moment we just left it ouside as there is a lot of sun here ...34c .

I have done a bit of wiggling around to see if anything obvious loose etc but cant find anything as yet

Hope that makes sense.

Thanks

[Ocean Sky]

This is the Nature 8 amp which is working fine

[noelex 77]

Ocean Sky, I think that regulator is an on/off solar regulator. These were common in the early days before PWM (pulse width modulated) regulators. Recently PWM regulators have just about been replaced by the third type of regulator called MPPT.

So much for the history lesson .

The on/off regulator you have is very inefficient, much less so than a PWM regulator. As well as being inefficient, it never charges the batteries to 100% SOC, which is detrimental to battery life.

Given your symptoms, I doubt both regulators have failed and suspect the problem lies in a bad connection, but rather than trying to troubleshoot the system the regulators need to be replaced even if they are working. So you may as well pull out the system and rewire with modern regulators.

[Ocean Sky]

Originally Posted by CatNewBee

well, there are 2 questions to be answered.

1. why is the voltage that low. Any loads left on that drain the battery?

2. Why there is no charge current from solar, you have 2 independent solar systems, both seem not to be connected to the battery or not charging.

One possible answer could be, you forgot to turn off a load, that drains more power than solar can recharge. Or simply you have some connections (corrosion), switches or fuses that prevent significant charge current from solar. Also possible, panels had been partially shaded when you check the current.

You need a Multimeter to check Voltage outputs at different points (voltage drop along the connection when a current flows), at the panels, at the controller input and output and at the battery. Then also measure the currents and identify possible loads.

Hi,thanks for your reply

Yes it seems likely the issue with leaving the hatch open contributed to the bilge pump working overtime and in turn draining the battery ..especially if ,as seems the case, all the solar power went off line ,maybe even at the same time ,which would be a big coincidence.

looking like i will have to start checking things with the digital multimeter,i do have one which came with the boat , i installed a new battery ,however i am pretty clueless how to use it .

I read online how to test the panels with the regulator and battery disconnected,

Then test the regulator with the panels disconnected ,and another one testing the regulator with the battery disconnected etc.

It probably sounds stupid ,but i am not too sure even how to make sure the items are totally disconnected etc.. this is before i start to tackle how to actually use the multimeter for the different tests

Bit afraid of blowing something up !

[Paul Elliott]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Ocean Sky, I think that regulator is an on/off solar regulator. These were common in the early days before PWM (pulse width modulated) regulators. Recently PWM regulators have just about been replaced by the third type of regulator called MPPT.

So much for the history lesson .

The on/off regulator you have is very inefficient, much less so than a PWM regulator. As well as being inefficient, it never charges the batteries to 100% SOC, which is detrimental to battery life.

Given your symptoms, I doubt both regulators have failed and suspect the problem lies in a bad connection, but rather than trying to troubleshoot the system the regulators need to be replaced even if they are working. So you may as well pull out the system and rewire with modern regulators.

I would fix the problem first, and then replace the regulators when it suited me. Swapping out two regulators and then still having the original problem to solve seems like an exercise in frustration.

For what it's worth, I had that identical NC25A-12V regulator (or an identical cousin) for many years. It was an convenient replacement for a failed MPPT regulator (all I could find on the island where I was), but it kept my batteries charged enough that there were no problems. It sounds like it has a relay inside the case. Perhaps I will start yet another thread for technical debate on the merits and failings of solar regulator types -- this probably isn't the place for that.

[Ocean Sky]

Originally Posted by noelex 77

Ocean Sky, I think that regulator is an on/off solar regulator. These were common in the early days before PWM (pulse width modulated) regulators. Recently PWM regulators have just about been replaced by the third type of regulator called MPPT.

So much for the history lesson .

The on/off regulator you have is very inefficient, much less so than a PWM regulator. As well as being inefficient, it never charges the batteries to 100% SOC, which is detrimental to battery life.

Given your symptoms, I doubt both regulators have failed and suspect the problem lies in a bad connection, but rather than trying to troubleshoot the system the regulators need to be replaced even if they are working. So you may as well pull out the system and rewire with modern regulators.

Hi Nolex

yes i think it is an on/off type ,and i think just the one main regulator is controlling the both of 2 separate solar systems.

The other Nature 8A regulator i have just connected to the single 40W panel,which i never had connected before ,so i decided to see if it works ,and that one seems ok.I am not sure if it is also connected to the other 2 systems as a kind of back up ?

Anyhow many thanks for your advice , i guess i will probably try to work out how to find the fault/fix before changing the regulator/s ...

I can see it is a bit like a can of worms ,no simple fix insight so far.