Understanding Lead-Acid Battery Life

[john61ct]

Nobody can promise that but you, armed with proper gear and the knowledge how to coddle the bank.

Even the best bank can be murdered in months.

[john61ct]

> you should not equalize AGM batteries
..
> if you can’t equalize a battery, it does not belong on a voyaging boat

Then Lifeline is the only bank to buy.

Remember, no matter how informed, comes down to opinion, you need to weigh the conflicting inputs and decide for yourself

[a64pilot]

Lifeline would be the only AGM bank to buy, there are flooded batteries too.
Of course I have trouble understanding why only Lifeline of all the AGM batteries can be equalized.

I think it’s because the Godber’s are very much “into” batteries and especially AGM and realized very early on that AGM batteries when used in a deep cycle application were going to need to be equalized to have an acceptable life span in that role and set out and developed a procedure that theirs can be equalized.
I doubt myself that there is that much difference in the design of their AGM’s over others.

I have attended several classes given by a Concorde battery rep on exactly how their battery is constructed differently than others in respect to the case, the way the cells are connected the difference in divider walls etc.
There is no new technology, no special chemistry etc. it’s just that in every respect there is an easy and cheap way, and a better way, they seem to have chosen the better way for everything even if it’s more expensive, down to even the metal in the posts and the bolts that hold a battery cable to the battery, I believe all these things don’t make a whole lot of difference when taken as individual things, but cumulatively it adds up.

In other words, I bet at least some other AGM’s can be equalized, just as there is no procedure, your on your own and could be causing more damage than you prevent?

[john61ct]

Unlike the LFP world, with top makers of lead banks, best to follow their recommendations.

I agree that likely Lifeline went out of their way to workaround the issue when it came up, while the others just said OK don't do it.

So Lifeline may well be the best choice if you know PSOC will be a problem.

But then Firefly, even more so.

But if you can get to Full regularly, Odyssey and Northstar do make fine batts.

[hellosailor]

John-
"House usage is gentler, rarely do batts get much hotter than ambient."
Presumably then, the usually plastic cased batteries should get the same kind of life on a boat, as he aluminum ones would in EVs. In other words....perhaps 10,000 cycles at significant discharge, rather than the normal claims for "plastic" in other uses?

"In an engine room that design would make matters worse." Or you could do like Tesla and water cool them, if you had to install them in the engine room. Put 'em in a sea chest with a small pump going out to a keel cooler.(G)

[john61ct]

You first 8-)

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Lifeline would be the only AGM bank to buy, there are flooded batteries too.
Of course I have trouble understanding why only Lifeline of all the AGM batteries can be equalized.

I think it’s because the Godber’s are very much “into” batteries and especially AGM and realized very early on that AGM batteries when used in a deep cycle application were going to need to be equalized to have an acceptable life span in that role and set out and developed a procedure that theirs can be equalized.
I doubt myself that there is that much difference in the design of their AGM’s over others.

I have attended several classes given by a Concorde battery rep on exactly how their battery is constructed differently than others in respect to the case, the way the cells are connected the difference in divider walls etc.
There is no new technology, no special chemistry etc. it’s just that in every respect there is an easy and cheap way, and a better way, they seem to have chosen the better way for everything even if it’s more expensive, down to even the metal in the posts and the bolts that hold a battery cable to the battery, I believe all these things don’t make a whole lot of difference when taken as individual things, but cumulatively it adds up.

In other words, I bet at least some other AGM’s can be equalized, just as there is no procedure, your on your own and could be causing more damage than you prevent?

I suspect Lifeline came up with the equalization procedure after there were so many warranty claims early on by installations that failed in under 2 years.

When my Northstar AGMs failed in about a year the manufacturer had the distributor perform multiple equalizations on them. It was unsuccesful.

[john61ct]

No, all AGM makers started off recommending conditioning.

All but Lifeline stopped doing so maybe 8-10 years ago IIRC

[Kenomac]

Originally Posted by john61ct

> you should not equalize AGM batteries
..
> if you can’t equalize a battery, it does not belong on a voyaging boat

Then Lifeline is the only bank to buy.

Remember, no matter how informed, comes down to opinion, you need to weigh the conflicting inputs and decide for yourself

Our Trojan lead acid batteries on our 53 are 7 years old, abused and never once equalized. Been run down to zero twice for testing and Still going strong

[john61ct]

Sure, that's great. I've seen them go 10+ years. Not uncommon for some banks to go to 13+.

But truly coddled, and very likely EoL stretched well past even 70% SoH.

[Paul L]

Originally Posted by john61ct

No, all AGM makers started off recommending conditioning.

All but Lifeline stopped doing so maybe 8-10 years ago IIRC

Are you equating conditioning with equalization, or were you referring to some other post?If so so, show me the equalization program for Rolls or North star AGMs.

[john61ct]

Confused.

Currently Lifeline is the only AGM maker that still recommends equalizing / conditioning. Some years ago Odyssey discovered that equalizing was hurting longevity, and Northstar also discontinued it shortly thereafter.

As in going to voltages significantly higher than the range they spec for normal charging, as has been the case for FLA forever.

The other AGM vendors may have a similar protocol spelled out to counter sulfation, but at their regular charge voltage, and perhaps also involving discharging to a low SoC as well,

which is not normal equalizing / conditioning.

There is a PSOC thread running on this, with disagreement about the semantics, and some links to the specific lower-voltage protocols.

[Sailing Drummer]

Originally Posted by rgleason

Are Deck solar panels more slippery than the deck? Can they be an effective way to use PV? Where (side decks, fore deck, cabin top)? My cabin top has no real clear area that can be used.

My boat had solar panels on the aft deck. After 5 years of slipping and sliding around I removed them. They were way too dangerous to walk on (which you're not supposed to do anyway) and took up too much room to go safely around them. They were replaced by panels at the lifelines, commonly called "wings".

[sailcrazy]

StuM and kmacdonald.....Please ID what negative reports and documents you are referring to regarding the PulseTech unit. We have been using a bank of 6 T-105s for our house bank. The first set lasted about 4 years, as a live-a-board in the Philippines, and in an effort to extend their life I bought and installed 3 PulseTech units (1 for each 12v bank of 2-T105s). We've sailed Asia, the Medd, and now the Caribb with that set- up. And while I can't point to specific proof that the PulseTech units have extended our battery bank life, they certainly have not hurt it either. Considering the cost of a new bank of batteries, it's a small cost indeed...if they do any good at all. And...as we have gotten wiser with time, we Now also equalize our batteries---never did before about a year ago. I'm satisfied and happy with our PulseTech units, and see no reason to not believe the manufacturers claims regarding them. If you have conflicting reports.....I'd sure like to see them! Please pass them along!

[hellosailor]

I know that the Chinese have some huge glass-floored bridge across a chasm, and there's a glass-floored observation deck at Grand Canyon, and even in the "Sears" Tower...but still, that's VERY thick glass.

Solar cells, no matter what they are covered in, are still very thin slices of a glassy mineral, and when you WALK ON GLASS the usual sound track goes "crack! tinkle tinkle!".

Making it a really bad idea to be walking on solar cells, at any time. And if you put that inch thick structural glass on top of them? Sure, you can walk on them...but the inch thick glass is going to complicate life.