Victron isolation transformers, ABYC compliance, surveys

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I don't know if ABYC requires an RCD / GFCI / ELCI on a dock pedestal, but other standards do at this point in the US. Every marina I've seen re-do power pedestals in the last 5+ years has them.

In Europe for 20-30 years. I have not seen one in dock pedestals in the US yet.

ABYC has nothing to do with dockside installation. I was talking about shore power inlets on boats. When ABYC finally adopted RCD type devices, they immediately made them mandatory (except when you have an isolation transformer of course) while before they ignored them for decades.

Same with toroidal transformers now. I bought my first toroidal transformers in 1982 so that is more than 40 years ago so maybe we’ll hear about them in ABYC in the next decade or so…

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

In Europe for 20-30 years. I have not seen one in dock pedestals in the US yet.

ABYC has nothing to do with dockside installation. I was talking about shore power inlets on boats. When ABYC finally adopted RCD type devices, they immediately made them mandatory (except when you have an isolation transformer of course) while before they ignored them for decades.

Same with toroidal transformers now. I bought my first toroidal transformers in 1982 so that is more than 40 years ago so maybe we’ll hear about them in ABYC in the next decade or so…

It's hit or miss whether you see them on dock pedestals in the US. Existing marinas aren't forced to update and add ELCI breakers if they're not doing other electrical work. But if they're making other electrical updates, then they have to add them.

I agree that ABYC is definitely slow moving. It's a decent guide of best practices, but not the only (or best) solution for every system.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by rslifkin

I don't know if ABYC requires an RCD / GFCI / ELCI on a dock pedestal, but other standards do at this point in the US. Every marina I've seen re-do power pedestals in the last 5+ years has them.

ABYC regulations apply only to new boat construction, and are not intended to cover shoreside installations [like shore power dock pedestals], which are covered by building codes, like NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code [NEC].

The most recent versions, of both the National Electric Code [NEC], and American Boat and Yacht Council [ABYC] standards call for an ELCI breaker, at both the pedestal and onboard the boat.
These standards are only relevant for newly built boats, and marinas; so not all marinas, and boats, are so equipped.

ABYC regulation E-11.11.1 states:
An Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter (ELCI) shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection as required by E-11.10.2.8.3 whichever is closer to the shore power connection.

“ABYC standard for ELCI's explained” ~ by Peter Kennedy, PKYS Inc
➥ https://shop.pkys.com/ABYC-standard-...ined_b_50.html

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by GordMay

ABYC regulations apply only to new boat construction, and are not intended to cover shoreside installations [like shore power dock pedestals], which are covered by building codes, like NFPA 70, the National Electrical Code [NEC].

The most recent versions, of both the National Electric Code [NEC], and American Boat and Yacht Council [ABYC] standards call for an ELCI breaker, at both the pedestal and onboard the boat.
These standards are only relevant for newly built boats, and marinas; so not all marinas, and boats, are so equipped.

ABYC regulation E-11.11.1 states:
An Equipment Leakage Circuit Interrupter (ELCI) shall be installed with or in addition to the main shore power disconnect circuit breaker(s) or at the additional overcurrent protection as required by E-11.10.2.8.3 whichever is closer to the shore power connection.

“ABYC standard for ELCI's explained” ~ by Peter Kennedy, PKYS Inc
➥ https://shop.pkys.com/ABYC-standard-...ined_b_50.html

And shortly after that, as exception, they state that a regular breaker is good enough when you have an isolation transformer

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

And shortly after that, as exception, they state that a regular breaker is good enough when you have an isolation transformer

Indeed.
But, as has been discussed, ad nauseam, the Charles Isolation Transformer doesn’t meet the current ABYC standard, for an electrostatic shield.

ABYC “E-11" [2008] ➥ http://www.blackfinforums.com/sites/.../abyc-e-11.pdf

Originally Posted by ABYC

11.7.1 Isolation Transformers – If used, an isolation transformer shall be of the encapsulated type and shall meet the requirements of UL 1561, Dry Type General Purpose and Power Transformers and the following additional requirements: (See E-11.17, DIAGRAM 6 and DIAGRAM 7.)

11.7.1.1 A metallic shield shall be located between the primary and secondary winding and be electrically insulated from all other portions of the transformer. It shall be designed to withstand, without breakdown, a high potential test of 4000 volts AC, 60 Hz, for one minute, applied between the shield and all other components such as windings, core, and outside enclosure.

Evidently, there is [and has been*] significant discussion and debate on this topic, amongst the experts, that comprise the ABYC Electrical PTC.
IDK, if we can [soon] expect changes to the Isolation Transformer standard.
Standards Development ➥ https://abycinc.org/standards/standards-development/

* As far back as 2007, the Transformer Working Group discussed adding an approved transformer, without a shield, citing IEC as a reference.
➥ https://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets...et55/PTC_E.pdf

Shoreside Electrical Codes, like the NEC, require an ELCI on all new shore power pedestals.

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Indeed.
But, as has been discussed, ad nauseam, the Charles Isolation Transformer doesn’t meet the current ABYC standard, for an electrostatic shield.

ABYC “E-11" [2008] ➥ http://www.blackfinforums.com/sites/.../abyc-e-11.pdf

Evidently, there is [and has been*] significant discussion and debate on this topic, amongst the experts, that comprise the ABYC Electrical PTC.
IDK, if we can [soon] expect changes to the Isolation Transformer standard.
Standards Development ➥ https://abycinc.org/standards/standards-development/

* As far back as 2007, the Transformer Working Group discussed adding an approved transformer, without a shield, citing IEC as a reference.
➥ https://www.nmma.org/assets/cabinets...et55/PTC_E.pdf

Shoreside Electrical Codes, like the NEC, require an ELCI on all new shore power pedestals.

Yeah, I put my Charles transformer in the dumpster where it belongs early 2003, then put in a Victron with toroidal transformer. Is was twice as small and 1/3 the weight and actually isolated as I found a ground jumper wire in the old one

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Yeah, I put my Charles transformer in the dumpster where it belongs early 2003, then put in a Victron with toroidal transformer. Is was twice as small and 1/3 the weight and actually isolated as I found a ground jumper wire in the old one

OOPS - my apologies!

I misspoke.
I meant to indicate that the Victron Iso' transformer, lacking an E-shield, didn't meet the current ABYC standard; which I expect will be revised [eventually].

[s/v Jedi]

Originally Posted by GordMay

OOPS - my apologies!

I misspoke.
I meant to indicate that the Victron Iso' transformer, lacking an E-shield, didn't meet the current ABYC standard; which I expect will be revised [eventually].

Yes, the ABYC being unaware of toroidal transformer may reach half a century if it becoming popular before it is adopted

For people reading these threads, here you can find exactly what I mean when I talk about these being superior: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toroid...d_transformers

It isn’t just their efficiency; also EMI emissions are eliminated, solving many problems aboard (radio interference etc.) as well as prevent potential health issues.

[Scott Berg]

Actually ABYC's electrical PTC pushed for ELCI main breakers for years but received a LOT of industry pushback, largely due to the lack of available models available in the US for 50a vessels. The standard was published but compliance constantly extended. Kinda like rear view cameras on cars...

As for docks, ALL docks constructed or rewired since 2014 in the US MUST be fitted with ELCI breakers (NEC 231 andNEC 555).

As noted, ABYC has nothing to do with the dock side...

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

In Europe for 20-30 years. I have not seen one in dock pedestals in the US yet.

ABYC has nothing to do with dockside installation. I was talking about shore power inlets on boats. When ABYC finally adopted RCD type devices, they immediately made them mandatory (except when you have an isolation transformer of course) while before they ignored them for decades.

Same with toroidal transformers now. I bought my first toroidal transformers in 1982 so that is more than 40 years ago so maybe we’ll hear about them in ABYC in the next decade or so…

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Scott Berg

As for docks, ALL docks constructed or rewired since 2014 in the US MUST be fitted with ELCI breakers (NEC 231 andNEC 555).

As noted, ABYC has nothing to do with the dock side...

In the USA, electrical code has always varied from state to state despite the presence of a purported "National" Electrical Code (=the NEC). Some states haven't adopted a statewide electrical code at all yet today, and until the last few years there was widespread variation from state to state, either through state-specific codes unrelated to the NEC, or adoption of the NEC with considerable local amendments.


There are also a couple of states that never updated beyond the 2008 NEC.



https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-r...forcement-maps


In addition, many states have made amendments to the NEC to remove, delay, or limit the scope of the installation requirements for AFCI, GFCI, and ELCI devices:


https://www.nahb.org/-/media/NAHB/ad...E32767087E5430


In essence the rationale for these amendments has been a combination of a) insufficient commercial availability of suitable, reliable xxCI devices, and b) unmanageable problems with nuisance trips.


There have also been many local inspectors who are sympathetic to these problems who have signed off on individual installations that lack ELCIs.



The upshot of all this is that there are many, many docks that have been installed or rewired in the USA since 2014 that lack ELCI devices.


Before you throw the regulatory environment in the USA under the bus, realize that the mains voltage here is 120 volts rather than the 220 volts in countries that were earlier adopters of these technologies. Since the electric shock hazard goes with the square of the voltage, the problem to be solved was four times worse in Europe than in North America.

[rslifkin]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Before you throw the regulatory environment in the USA under the bus, realize that the mains voltage here is 120 volts rather than the 220 volts in countries that were earlier adopters of these technologies. Since the electric shock hazard goes with the square of the voltage, the problem to be solved was four times worse in Europe than in North America.

Except for all of those docks with 50A 120/240 split phase hookups where you could potentially end up with 240V in the water.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Jammer

In the USA, electrical code has always varied from state to state despite the presence of a purported "National" Electrical Code (=the NEC). Some states haven't adopted a statewide electrical code at all yet today, and until the last few years there was widespread variation from state to state, either through state-specific codes unrelated to the NEC, or adoption of the NEC with considerable local amendments.


There are also a couple of states that never updated beyond the 2008 NEC.
...

As of August 1, 2024, some version of the National Electrical Code (NFPA 70- NEC) is in effect in 46 States:
the 2023/24 NEC is in effect in 13 states
the 2020 NEC is in effect in 24 states
the 2017 NEC is in effect in seven states
and the 2008 NEC is in effect in two states.
And:
The 2022 California Electrical Code, California Code of Regulations Title 24, Part 3 is based on the 2020 edition of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code.
The 2018 Chicago Electrical Code is based on the 2017 edition of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code.
The 2011 New York City Electrical Code is based on the 2008 edition of NFPA 70, National Electrical Code.

“Where is the National Electrical Code in effect?”
➥ https://www.nfpa.org/education-and-r...forcement-maps

Browse NEC Adoptions by State ➥ https://www.iaei.org/page/nec-code-adoption




In Canada, every province and territory adopts, and enforces, the same installation code, the Canadian Electrical Code (CEC), with few provincial amendments*.
The Canadian Electrical Code, Part 1, is the official authorized electrical safety law, and is the only code, recognized by regulatory authority inspectors, and law courts, throughout Canada.
Generally, the administration and adoption of the Canadian Electrical Code is addressed at the provincial and territorial level, whereas the enforcement of the Code may be at either the provincial, and/or municipal level.

* For example:
“Proposed Amendments to the Electrical Safety Code regulation (O. Reg. 164/99) under Part VIII of the Electricity Act, 1998"
➥ https://www.ontariocanada.com/regist...33&language=en

[Statistical]

Originally Posted by Scott Berg

As for docks, ALL docks constructed or rewired since 2014 in the US MUST be fitted with ELCI breakers (NEC 231 andNEC 555).

Kinda.

The 2014 version of the NEC requires ELCI for dock shorepower connections (and many other outdoor locations near water).

However the NEC being updated doesn't mean a specific state adopts that for state electrical regulations. States individually adopted the 2014 (or later) version at various times. One state might have adopted the NEC-2014 in 2016, another not until 2021. States generally wait 2-5 years before "upgrading".

Today in 2024 all but a handful of states are using NEC 2014 or later version but that wasn't the case in 2014. There are thousands of docks updated in 2014 or later which weren't required to install an ELCI and thus didn't.

The dock I am at right now is one of them. Virginia is currently using 2020 version of NEC but they didn't adopt that until 2024. Prior to that they were using the 2017 version but not until 2021. They never adopted the 2014 version having skipped from 2008 to 2017 so as a result any shorepower connection installed or upgraded at any point between 2014 and 2021 in Virginia would not require ELCI. Our dock had a major renovation to include all new shore power pedestals in ... 2019 and so the management company decided to save money and not put in ELCIs.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by s/v Jedi

Just look at the RCD devices which were treated as being of the devil until they finally adopted them and now you must have them. But still not on the dock pedestals

Having just wired my new pier myself (to code, with a County permit, and final inspection), I've become intimately familiar with the National Electrical Code section 555 (piers). All wires on a pier must have Ground Fault protection. Circuits under 20A (outlets, lights, etc) must have 5mA protection at the panel breaker. Power pedestals are given a break, and must have 30mA protection at the panel breaker.


I forget what, if any, difference there is between RCD and GFCI, but US electric code now requires what is (or is essentially) RCD at the power pedestal. And for a 50A 2 pole 30mA breaker, that's north of $200!

[GordMay]

In Canada:

“TP 127 E - Ships Electrical Standards (2018)” ~ Transport Canada
➥ https://tc.canada.ca/en/marine-trans...-2018-tp-127-e
- 14.1 Transformers, except those used for motor starting shall be double-wound (two separate windings); auto-transformers shall be used only for reduced voltage motor starting or other special applications.
[I saw no specific reference to isolation transformers]


CE-C, Part I, (C22.1-18)
Section 78 — Marine Wharves, Docking Facilities, Fixed and Floating Piers, and Boathouses
➥ https://www.benderinc.com/fileadmin/...ound-fault.pdf
Rule 78-050 outlines the requirements for receptacles and requires that
receptacles installed outdoors on fixed or floating piers, docking facilities, marine wharves, boathouses, and supplying shore power to boats be [amongst many other things]:
- all receptacles be protected by a ground fault circuit interrupter of the Class A type for all receptacles rated at 125 V, 15 A or 20 A.
- ground fault protection be provided to de-energize all ungrounded conductors of each feeder for distribution equipment for floating piers, docking facilities, and boathouses, set low enough to permit normal operation, but not greater than 30mA.