Welding Cable - Any Downsides when used for Starter Motor???

[boatnerd]

I was an ABYC accredited electrician(expired) with years of cabling experience on DC 12v, 32v, and 24v as well with AC 108v - 240v systems.
Don't waste your time with the welding cable. Ive replaced welding cables countless time. It either develops cracks or swells to a disgusting gummy state. In a few months time the insulation can becomes saturated with fuel and water in an engineroom environment. As someone else mentioned it has a tendency to wick moisture. The jacket may appear good but insided is oxide green. Stick to tinned boatcable if you can or cable w/ insulation rated for fuel. It's a common 'cheap sailor' mistake.
Don't bother soldering larger cabling either. It work hardens the joint and is very challenging to do uniformly and consistantly. Better of using Thomas Betts "Kopr-Sheild" paste under the lugs. It's both conductive and anti corrosive. Keeps the moisture from wicking into cable strands.

[billgewater]

In reality, cables around an engine room are usually short, whereas a supply cable pair to an anchor winch is long, but probably not exposed to fuel or vapours. I have welding cable for my winch and the same cable in the engine room. But in the engine room the cables have two layer covers of coloured (red/black) heat shrink wrap from end to end and over the crimped end fittings. Installed 1978, still as new.

[Reefmagnet]

You can buy "dual sheath" welding cables. I suspect these would be tougher than any single sheath coating of any wire type. However, welding cables use fine wire strands to provide maximum flexibility and fatigue resistance and these finer wire strands would suck up liquids like a paintbrush and corrode through much more readily. This is what I'd be more worried about.

[Compass790]

Following this thread with interest.
Good points both for & against. Most boats I've been around had welding cable for the windlass wire. Didn't realise it's susceptibility to fuel damage. Some of the welding cable had been in use for a long time. Like others I'm more frightened of LPG but if I could afford it I'd use boat cable in the engine room after reading the horror stories.
Liked boatnerds tip about about Kopr-Shield paste, we always used to solder our welding cable lugs when used for welding as just crimping didnt work so well. However the hardening was an issue so will try that paste.
I wonder if just putting heat shrink over the welding cable would protect it from the possible fuel degradation?

On edit: bilgewater posted whilst I was typing so glad he answered about heat shrink.

[Wotname]

Most of the naysayers appear to be USA based; maybe the welding cable in the USA is second rate as far as insulation is concerned.

This the stuff I am planning on using https://ktcables.com.au/shop/automot...tranding-100m/

Note the dual insulation construction and the material is V90TH PVC. More here on the insulation https://www.prysmiancable.com.au/wp-...heet_feb15.pdf

AFAIK, this is diesel / oil resistant.

The fine conductors is slight concern but surely this can mitigated by proper sealing of the terminals.

BTW, the plan to use welding cable is not due to "being cheap", rather marine cable in 2/0 awg is simply not available here and funnily enough, I don't plan to import heavy cable from half way around the world when another suitable product is nearby.

Thanks to everyone for your views.

[Compass790]

Yea Wotname I'm sure you'll seal the lugs perfectly.
Was a bit surprised to see the insulation is C3 fire rating, thought stuff that gets dragged over hot welds would be higher but I'd be ok with using that double jacketed stuff as it's chemical resistance is good.thanks for posting specs.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by Wotname

Most of the naysayers appear to be USA based; maybe the welding cable in the USA is second rate as far as insulation is concerned.

This the stuff I am planning on using https://ktcables.com.au/shop/automot...tranding-100m/

Note the dual insulation construction and the material is V90TH PVC. More here on the insulation https://www.prysmiancable.com.au/wp-...heet_feb15.pdf

AFAIK, this is diesel / oil resistant.

The fine conductors is slight concern but surely this can mitigated by proper sealing of the terminals.

BTW, the plan to use welding cable is not due to "being cheap", rather marine cable in 2/0 awg is simply not available here and funnily enough, I don't plan to import heavy cable from half way around the world when another suitable product is nearby.

Thanks to everyone for your views.

And I suspect (knowing Wottie) that he will carefully secure and isolate that lead from battery to starter so that mere jacket degradation will not lead to a short. Can't see that as being too dangerous... but I suppose that ABYC could shoot it down.

Jim

[mvweebles]

I can't speak to the cable the OP references in Oz. But in the US, welding cable is usually very flexible black cable with soft insulation and untinned conductors.

Ancor marine cable is about 2x the price of comparably sized welding cable. Marine cable lasts a lifetime so never needs redoing - it's a one shot expense. Cost, time and effort to makeup cables is the same. When all done, the additional cost of marine cable is more, but not appreciably more unless on an absolute shoestring budget or in an area where unavailable.

Sometimes it makes sense to consider non-marine sources. Wiring and cabling is not one of them. You'll only do it once. Get the good stuff.

Peter

[Dsanduril]

I was going to stay out of this discussion, but then you went and posted the cable specs

Just to be thorough: As would be expected of welding cable, the stranding is listed as Class 6/AS 1125 (which traces back to IEC 60228). Standard big-lug hexagonal crimps are generally considered less suitable for Class 5/6 find stranded cable as they don't provide sufficient mechanical pull-out strength with fine strands. A full indent type of crimp or an oval, gas-tight crimp are preferred with fine-stranded cable.

[marshmat]

Originally Posted by Jim Cate

And I suspect (knowing Wottie) that he will carefully secure and isolate that lead from battery to starter so that mere jacket degradation will not lead to a short. Can't see that as being too dangerous... but I suppose that ABYC could shoot it down.

Maybe, but I know what my insurance broker will say. "You could have used the $5.20/ft boat battery cable that's legal and meets the standards, but you used the $3.99/ft welding cable from Princess Auto instead? Was it really worth saving the $48, if it gives the adjuster a reason to deny your $12,000 claim?"


Cutting corners may not come back to bite you right away. But it always comes back to bite you eventually. Maybe you're a mile off a lee shore and the engine won't start because the cable wicked up too much water and corroded. Maybe some bilge oil dissolves the insulation and the bare copper touches an engine mount and the spark starts a fire. Maybe you go to sell the boat and the buyer's surveyor finds the crap wire and now it has to be replaced at your expense before the sale can close.

[Reefmagnet]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

I was going to stay out of this discussion, but then you went and posted the cable specs

Just to be thorough: As would be expected of welding cable, the stranding is listed as Class 6/AS 1125 (which traces back to IEC 60228). Standard big-lug hexagonal crimps are generally considered less suitable for Class 5/6 find stranded cable as they don't provide sufficient mechanical pull-out strength with fine strands. A full indent type of crimp or an oval, gas-tight crimp are preferred with fine-stranded cable.

When I worked for a manufacturer, the manufacturing method for cables was to hydraulicly crimp the lugs then dip the crimped ends into a pot of molten solder for good measure. The field method of crimping quite often involved bashing on a crimp lug with a hammer against a flat surface. Never really a problem with the cables pulling from lugs with any method. There was a tendency for the joint to develop a resistance with use which lead to heat and insulation damage of insulation which tended to be softening and splitting as genuine welding cable shouldn't melt or burn, just char. Ozone, which is generated in great quantity by some welding processes, is also known to damage welding (and quite possibly other) cable insulation.

[Jim Cate]

Originally Posted by marshmat

Maybe, but I know what my insurance broker will say. "You could have used the $5.20/ft boat battery cable that's legal and meets the standards, but you used the $3.99/ft welding cable from Princess Auto instead? Was it really worth saving the $48, if it gives the adjuster a reason to deny your $12,000 claim?"


Cutting corners may not come back to bite you right away. But it always comes back to bite you eventually. Maybe you're a mile off a lee shore and the engine won't start because the cable wicked up too much water and corroded. Maybe some bilge oil dissolves the insulation and the bare copper touches an engine mount and the spark starts a fire. Maybe you go to sell the boat and the buyer's surveyor finds the crap wire and now it has to be replaced at your expense before the sale can close.

Perhaps you didn't read the post where he mentions that the reason for using the welding cable isn't fiscal, but total unavailability of larger "marine" cables here in Oz.

May seem odd to you, but for many of us, getting the specific items required by various standards associations is often just not feasible, yet life must go on. To say that "cutting corners" will "always" come back to plague you is to deny the reality that for many folks this has not been true. In posts upthread folks have cited use of welding cable for decades without issues...

Basing such decisions on the vague possibility that in some future situation an insurer will attempt to deny coverage may be important to you, but it isn't a big driver for everyone.

Jim

[Lepke]

I have welding cables running about 40' from the ER to a sub panel at the lower helm. They were installed about 1973 by a electrician in a Canadian shipyard. I inspected them closely about 10 years ago for signs of corrosion and resistance. Now at about 50 years old, I see no voltage drop with everything running from that panel, and the insulation seems fine. But the cables run in the overhead, not thru the bilge.

[AKA-None]

Hmm not seeing the kind of welding cable you folks have but my experience years ago included welding leads that were pretty durable in all kinds of abuse. Nothing in a shipyard is treated kindly.
Myself I prefer tinned cable but if nothing else was available I wouldn’t hesitate to use good industrial welding cable, not auto parts welding cable.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by Lepke

I have welding cables running about 40' from the ER to a sub panel at the lower helm. They were installed about 1973 by a electrician in a Canadian shipyard. I inspected them closely about 10 years ago for signs of corrosion and resistance. Now at about 50 years old, I see no voltage drop with everything running from that panel, and the insulation seems fine. But the cables run in the overhead, not thru the bilge.

Thanks Lepke, not that I worried too much as being a welder/ fabricator or iron worker in yr lingo I'd seen what welding cable has to endure.
Good real world experience, however others with fuel soaked lines clearly have had different experiences.
Bottom line from following this thread is if you use welding cable use double sheathed wire & seal the crimped lug terminal fittings. Glue cored heat shrink would be good there. I wont post my shade tree alternative to adhesive cored heat shrink but its worked well on submerged bilge pump wires. for 5 + years.