Welding Cable - Any Downsides when used for Starter Motor???

[Mr B]

Ive been dragging welding cables around on the ground for fifty years,
They got dragged through every kind of Acid, Diesel, Fuel, Water, Sludge of every kind,
Sharp corners on steel sheets, Etc, Run over by Forklifts, Etc Etc,

The only damage other than extreme old age is when they get stiff,
Is the lugs where they go into the holder burns out from extreme heat,
The lugs on the welder it self gets damaged by the continual moving around and pulling on the bolts holding it to the welder,
Repair is just a length of copper pipe that slips over the cable and hammered tite,
A hole is drilled thru the Copper pipe to fit over the bolt thread,
A centre punch hammered into the Flattened copper makes sure it never comes out,
The only damaged part of the cable is about 4 inches long and is cut off,
The cable itself is just like new,
I bought my copper welding cable in 150 metre lengths, It lasts for many many years,
Its for 400 Amps,
All my batterys have welding cable on them, Including my boat,
No solder, No sheath, No tinning,
My boat batterys are rigid in position and never move,
Nothing like being on my mobile welder, Being dragged up the side of ships and then inside to where ever, Up the side of buildings and across roofs, Through factorys,
They have an extremely hard life,

The Aluminium welding leads are the tops for electricity to move through them,
High efficiency,
But are absolutely useless if they are dragged around, They fall to bits inside the sheath, Pure Crap,

Buy your welding cable from a welding supply company, You wont get shonky wire from them,

Im in Australia and American laws dont apply here, Only Australian Standards apply here, ,

Cheers, Brian,

[Compass790]

I liked yr post,
I haven't been a welder for 50 years but a long time. Yes have seen diesel spilt on the cables amongst numerous other substances. Not so ready to dismiss other experiences with fuel problems dissolving the insulation. Just have serious doubts it would happen quickly.
A lot of standards are arrived at as a money making scheme. The people who advise regulatory bodies are often the same ones that stand to profit from the regulation.
I look at the treatment for dive cylinders compared to oxygen bottles here in NZ.
Its laughable the difference.
But I guess the regulatory bodies are trying to protect the people that lack uncommon sense.
There was a local testing for an LGP ( propane ) gas leak with a cigarette lighter ???.


But on the other hand NZ manages to win the Americas cup tho Britain cant seem to manage it after almost 200 years.
Made me laugh when Ben Ainslie said we had 30 yrs experience. But they had a good boat in Freemantle. Hard to understand how they can't work it out.
Wish Australia had a challenger too, I'd hate to lose to them but wish they were in the comp.
Apologies for the thread drift.

[GordMay]

Originally Posted by Reefmagnet

You can buy "dual sheath" welding cables. I suspect these would be tougher than any single sheath coating of any wire type. However, welding cables use fine wire strands to provide maximum flexibility and fatigue resistance and these finer wire strands would suck up liquids like a paintbrush and corrode through much more readily. This is what I'd be more worried about.

Thanks. I’d never noticed double-insulated welding cable.
➥ double insulated welding cable,copper rubber welding cable,rubber welding cable,flexible PVC welding cable
➥ https://www.vwcable.com/nbr-rubber-d...welding-cable/
I’ll bet that stuff is cheap, and easy to source, especially in retail quantities.

Anixter explains Welding Cable ➥ https://www.anixter.com/en_ca/resour...ing-cable.html


At a regular school, you experience the lesson(s), then take an examination.
At the school of hard knocks, you take the exam, then get the lesson/experience.



I think, some of us are just trying to rationalize poor practice, instead of selecting "horses for courses" (products for intended use).

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

I was going to stay out of this discussion, but then you went and posted the cable specs

Just to be thorough: As would be expected of welding cable, the stranding is listed as Class 6/AS 1125 (which traces back to IEC 60228). Standard big-lug hexagonal crimps are generally considered less suitable for Class 5/6 find stranded cable as they don't provide sufficient mechanical pull-out strength with fine strands. A full indent type of crimp or an oval, gas-tight crimp are preferred with fine-stranded cable.

Thanks for chiming in

I hadn't heard about the crimping aspects of fine stranded cable before. Luckily I have full indent crimpers!

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by smac999

I've seen welding cable with the sheath completely removed for about a foot due to a leaking fuel line. the bare metal pos and neg unfused battery cables were less then an inch apart... luckily they were clamped seperatlly one above the other to the wall, and not together.

That would have been a sobering moment!

It looks like the likely Oz manufactured welding cable WILL be diesel safe. As well, the circuit will be fused and physical separation be closer to a foot rather than an inch.

So far this thread has reinforced for me the need for excellent sealing of the terminals. Note to self - take no half measures with the terminal sealing.

[witzgall]

Interesting about the different sheathing used on welding cables from around the world. I looked at the ABYC E-11 electrical standards, and they define the chemical and mechanical properties of various insulations used on wires/cables. It does not say "Don't use welding cables" just essentially "Only use those with these types of insulation." So if the welding cable in AUS is chemical resistant, then perhaps it would pass muster in the US per ABYC. I am not surprised at this - I have visited a mining equipment company there and learned a bit about the harsh environment they have to work in. For instance, coal dust is very corrosive, and covers everything!!!

My ABYC electrical workbook does specifically state something to the effect that is is not to be used because the insulation will degrade in fuel/oil.

The tinning of the strands is another issue, but not one that is mandated.

Chris

[CharlieJ]

@witzgall #36-To emphasize your post; from ABYC E-11:

11.14.1.2 CONDUCTORS-DC
11.14.1.2.1 Conductors and flexible cords shall have a minimum rating of the nominal system voltage.
11.14.1.2.1.1 The construction of insulated cables and conductors shall conform with the requirements of:
11.14.1.2.1.1.1 UL 1426, Cables for Boats, or
11.14.1.2.1.1.2 the insulating material temperature rating requirements of:
11.14.1.2.1.1.2.1 SAE J378, Marine Engine Wiring, and
11.14.1.2.1.1.2.2 SAE J1127, Battery Cable, or SAE J1128, Low-Tension Primary Cable.

[Cadence]

Originally Posted by Mr B

Ive been dragging welding cables around on the ground for fifty years,
They got dragged through every kind of Acid, Diesel, Fuel, Water, Sludge of every kind,
Sharp corners on steel sheets, Etc, Run over by Forklifts, Etc Etc,

The only damage other than extreme old age is when they get stiff,
Is the lugs where they go into the holder burns out from extreme heat,
The lugs on the welder it self gets damaged by the continual moving around and pulling on the bolts holding it to the welder,
Repair is just a length of copper pipe that slips over the cable and hammered tite,
A hole is drilled thru the Copper pipe to fit over the bolt thread,
A centre punch hammered into the Flattened copper makes sure it never comes out,
The only damaged part of the cable is about 4 inches long and is cut off,
The cable itself is just like new,
I bought my copper welding cable in 150 metre lengths, It lasts for many many years,
Its for 400 Amps,
All my batterys have welding cable on them, Including my boat,
No solder, No sheath, No tinning,
My boat batterys are rigid in position and never move,
Nothing like being on my mobile welder, Being dragged up the side of ships and then inside to where ever, Up the side of buildings and across roofs, Through factorys,
They have an extremely hard life,

The Aluminium welding leads are the tops for electricity to move through them,
High efficiency,
But are absolutely useless if they are dragged around, They fall to bits inside the sheath, Pure Crap,

Buy your welding cable from a welding supply company, You wont get shonky wire from them,

Im in Australia and American laws dont apply here, Only Australian Standards apply here, ,

Cheers, Brian,

You stated my thoughts about the way welding cable is brutally used and dragged through you no what.

[Mr B]

This is the type of welding cable I use,
Its for dragging around in the harshest environments imaginable,
Its extremely flexible,
Its double sheathed,
Its very expensive,
It has a Aus and NZ Standard,
It comes in various sizes, Thicknesses, (Amperage ratings,)
I use 400 amp cable as I use very large welding machines, Continuous duty,

The only thing that kills it, Is being dragged over sharp corners, It gets cut open,
Or extreme old age from laying on the ground in extreme temperatures,
Like 45 degrees Celcius, Our Summers,
It gets stiff to drag around,
My cables are approx 30 years old, And were used on a mobile welder. Truck mounted,
I have no problems using them as battery leads,

[Jammer]

Another alternative that may be available locally is Diesel Locomotive Cable. It is tinned, finely stranded, and has water and oil resistant insulation. At times I have been able to get good deals on it as surplus. It is superior to marine cable and welding cable in every way, but most people don't know what it is and won't use it.



https://www.anixter.com/en_us/resour...ble--dlo-.html

[sailingharry]

I have a full set of current ABYC specs, and reference them often. As an engineer with a penchant for digging into things, I probably have tried to suss out insulations in the past (but I can't recall). While I'm sure that there are potential issues with welding cable, I suspect that they are related to less common scenarios -- constant fuel leak on it, laying in oily bilges, etc.


My first boat, a 1979 Sabre, had welding cable, that was called out by the surveyor (as a note, but not an underwriting requirement). Bigger issues was the deplorable state of the wiring in general! But the welding cable was certainly serviceable. It went away in the general upgrade of the battery system.


My current boat, a '98 Saga 43, is a Canadian built boat of moderately high quality. The high current distribution installation is a dream. Big bus bars, lots of big fuses, nicely laid out and accessable. And all the big wires (battery cables, starter cable, bus ties, battery switches, power winch, windlass, inverter, etc) are all welding cable. After 22 years, it looks mint (and the surveyor didn't comment).


I think that my point is that welding cable is less than ideal, and presents some risks, at least theoretically. But it is not just a "cheap out" or a "shade tree mechanic" product. The number of quality boats out there with factory installed welding cable is probably very high. And the risk is fairly low.


As far as insurance? I'm not sure, but I don't think my policy has an exclusion for damages caused by work that doesn't meet every letter of ABYC. And if it did, I'd be shopping for a new insurer. I'm sure that a targeted inspection of my boat, looking specifically for any work that doesn't meet CURRENT ABYC standards (even those changed since construction) would produce a list longer than the entire ABYC standards library!

[Cadence]

[

I think that my point is that welding cable is less than ideal, and presents some risks, at least theoretically. But it is not just a "cheap out" or a "shade tree mechanic" product. The number of quality boats out there with factory installed welding cable is probably very high. And the risk is fairly low.


As far as insurance? I'm not sure, but I don't think my policy has an exclusion for damages caused by work that doesn't meet every letter of ABYC. And if it did, I'd be shopping for a new insurer. I'm sure that a targeted inspection of my boat, looking specifically for any work that doesn't meet CURRENT ABYC standards (even those changed since construction) would produce a list longer than the entire ABYC standards library![/QUOTE]

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by CharlieJ

@Wotname
Other than the insulation is not rated for the environment in the engine room and the ultra-fine stranding will wick moisture like you wouldn't believe if there is a breech in the insulation or at the crimp. . .

What could possibly go wrong?

[a64pilot]

Welding cable will be fine, as far as shorting and catching fire, surely you fuse at the battery don’t you?

Tinned I’m sure is better, ALL the wire I added is tinned, but having said that the Yanmar factory wiring harness isn’t and neither is any of the wire that Island Packet used when they built the boat 33 years ago, and both are still in excellent shape.

[sailingharry]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

Welding cable will be fine, as far as shorting and catching fire, surely you fuse at the battery don’t you?

Tinned I’m sure is better, ALL the wire I added is tinned, but having said that the Yanmar factory wiring harness isn’t and neither is any of the wire that Island Packet used when they built the boat 33 years ago, and both are still in excellent shape.

I wouldn't use Yanmar construction standards to justify anything! The rubber fuel hoses on my '98 4JH2E aren't visibly marked (they are painted gray....), but just going on size and feel, I am about 95% sure they don't meet USCG requirements for fuel lines. And unlike welding cable, tinned wires, and ABYC standards, those are actually LAW. LOL.