Welding Cable - Any Downsides when used for Starter Motor???

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Cadence

It seems to me having a commercial shop doing the crimping would make sense. I don't know many people that have the equipment to do it right on wire that size.

While I would agree that crimping is the way to go when the proper tools and tooling are available, it is easy to solder cable to lugs.


The best way to do it is to get solder slugs that are the same size as the cable. Places that sell welding cable and lugs usually also sell the slugs. They are inexpensive. You clamp the lug in a vise, put the slugs in the cup, and heat until the solder is thorougly melted. A propane torch is sufficient up to at least 4/0. Then the stripped end of the cable is placed into the cup of molten solder and held in place until the solder has solidified.


In reality joints made this way will last just as long as crimped ones. It's something anyone can do with minimum equipment, and a good alternative to measuring cable lengths to the inch and having shop crimp the lugs.

[Dsanduril]

It took a little digging, but I suspect there is a typo in the cable specs, it should read V90HT. This would be a standard electrical wire insulation marking in Australia. I think the "V" indicates the insulation material (vinyl - could not find a definitive source for this). The 90 indicates the maximum continuous operating temperature (many definitive sources for this part).

In PVC insulation there used to be three standard types: V75, V90, and V105. PVC starts to soften around 95-100C (or lower depending on formulation), the 105 was intended and specified (in the standard) for temporary conditions at that temperature. However, the marking was interpreted by most users as being suitable for continuous use at that temperature (because that's what it means for V75 and V90). V105 is no longer a valid marking, there is now V90 and V90-HT (high temperature). The HT indicates a cable suitable for 90 degree usage with occasional excursions to 105 - basically the same as the old V105, but this way the continuous duty temperature is what is marked on the cable.

There's a Tycab blog post about using V90 PVC for starter cables, one of their reasons:

...Furthermore, the V90 sheathing protecting those conductors must be able to endure, even when being attacked by engine compartment heat and engine fluids.....

...Let’s be honest, even the most dependable cars on the road today would suffer from strange engine issues if their starter cables weren’t V90 compliant....

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by Mickeyrouse

It seems like this controversy of marine-rated tinned cable vs. un-tinned welding cable is much ado about very little. The premise for welding cable seems to be that it’s so much cheaper. I just checked various suppliers on the net. The price difference of 1/0 marine cable versus welding cable is about $1.80 per foot US. Considering that marine cable is tinned, which most assuredly holds up better and maybe performs a little better, and seems to have a safer jacket, which may or may not be important depending on whose engine compartment and bilge it’s lying in, how many have a cable run that the difference in cost is a material amount more than a couple cases of beer? If the argument is that welding cable is more suitable, that’s one thing. But if the controversy is only about welding cable is “almost as good, and a little cheaper”, well, I’m going to go without the couple cases of beer, and spring for marine.

Just curious, did you read that the tinned marine cable of that size is unavailable in Tasmania and the double insulated welding cable is readily available? Ergo, price is not the driving factor in this instance.

[Dsanduril]

Going a bit further, I suspect this is the cable OEM:
https://www.tycab.com.au/flexible-po...ble-insulated/

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Dsanduril

Going a bit further, I suspect this is the cable OEM:
https://www.tycab.com.au/flexible-po...ble-insulated/

Good sleuthing - I suspect you are correct .

[thinwater]

Originally Posted by GordMay

Welding cable is typically insulated with EPDM (Ethylene Propylene Diene Monomer), Neoprene, or PVC (Polyvinyl Chloride).
EPDM and Neoprene (slightly better than EPDM) are the most common synthetic rubber insulating jacket for welding cables, but are not very resistant to gas and petroleum based liquids.
PVC (standard or cross-linked) has much better resistance against chemical contacts.

As a refinery guy... not entirly accurate.


EPDM will fail within weeks of exposure to petroleum, within days with some petroleum fractions. Neoprene can resist many petroleum products long-term. PVC also does reasonably well with oil and is standard on most machine wiring.


But EPDM really sucks around oil and should be disqualified from the engine room. I was involved in a large transit bus recall where an EMPD coolant hose was routed under the dip stick area. Just a few drips now and then would ruin the hoses within a year. It is really good for coolant, but inadvertent oil exposure is always possible, the rubber gets very weak, and the hose can blow in very little time.

[AKA-None]

Anyone who thinks welding cables don’t see 400 amps continuously hasn’t spent much time working with heavy construction. Eg shipbuilding
Examples are carbon arc and welding machines as in automated welders not the power supply but the welding head. For heavy welds or carbon arc the welding machines (power supply) are typically run wide open.

[Mr B]

Originally Posted by AKA-None

Anyone who thinks welding cables don’t see 400 amps continuously hasn’t spent much time working with heavy construction. Eg shipbuilding
Examples are carbon arc and welding machines as in automated welders not the power supply but the welding head. For heavy welds or carbon arc the welding machines (power supply) are typically run wide open.

I use the same welding cables on Carbon Arc Gouging, Fusearc, Submerged arc,
Mig with 2.1 wire, Arc welding using 8mm electrodes, Low hydrogen electrodes,
600 amps continuous duty cycle,
When your laying a 3/4 inch weld, You have a thick cable to supply power to the hand piece, And No it dont melt from the heat,

Whats a battery pump out for half a minute, 45 Amps,

I have never encountered any problems with my leads being dragged thru diesel or any other petroleum products laying on the ground, EG; Oil,
I have used petrol and diesel to wipe the crap off my welding leads before putting my leads back on the truck to clean them,

[Cadence]

Not to start aq pissing contest but soldering is only good for an electrical connection. It isn't meant to be a mechanical one.
silver solder might work except the temp. would probably melt the insulation.

[Chotu]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Not to start aq pissing contest but soldering is only good for an electrical connection. It isn't meant to be a mechanical one.
silver solder might work except the temp. would probably melt the insulation.

Exactly what I’ve been thinking but keeping quiet about

[Wotname]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Not to start aq pissing contest but soldering is only good for an electrical connection. It isn't meant to be a mechanical one.
silver solder might work except the temp. would probably melt the insulation.

You are correct of course.

But....Problem already solved .

See below...

Originally Posted by Wotname

Thanks for the laughs guys .

Now tell me, should I solder then crimp or crimp first and then solder - asking for a friend

Originally Posted by Wotname

OK, I have worked it out, it is best to apply crimping pressure while the solder is between the solidus and liquidus temperatures. This should ensure a good quality COLD joint!!!
.............

[Jammer]

Originally Posted by Cadence

Not to start aq pissing contest but soldering is only good for an electrical connection. It isn't meant to be a mechanical one.

Depends on the surface area and mechanics of the soldered joint.


Properly soldered lugs are extremely strong.

[darylat8750]

Originally Posted by Jammer

Depends on the surface area and mechanics of the soldered joint.


Properly soldered lugs are extremely strong.

Unless they get too hot.

[Jammer]

Tin/lead solder melts at 360 degrees F to 460 degrees F depending on the alloy. The insulation will melt first.


Look, if you have the tools at hand to make a proper crimped connection to cables this size, use it. They are specialized tools that are big and expensive. But in my experience a properly soldered connection -- using solder slugs in a cup-type lug -- is far more reliable and indeed safer than a "crimped" connection that was constructed using pliers, a vise, a hammer, tooling that is the wrong size, or other ersatz techniques.

[JPA Cate]

Relative to your drowning in diesel method of checking the covers of your wire, what you are doing does not replicate what would happen in the engine bay. There is no wire in it, no air to it, it is very clean, and it will not be subject to fairly rapid temperature changes. Therefore, I'm questioning myself as to whether it will tell you what you want to know.

Ann