What count as a cycle (battery life)

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Pete7

Yes I think so. The sort of battery you will see in a chandlers or caravan place. Now often sealed with a label making remarkable claims. Here is an example, 12v and 110ah for £67 or $90 so what is not to like. In three years take them to the scappy and get £20 for the lead, bargain. If it all goes wrong and you destroy a one so what, take it out of the circuit and use the remaining battery.

OK, yes fine for those for whom they're fine, like Wally's. 8-)

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by Paul L

Rolls AGMs have been shipping for at least 7 years.

Yes, like I said, way too short to know for sure.

In another 15-20 they may have the grassroots credibility of Odyssey etc.

Some say they outsource to Full River, I dunno.

Some are happy to just trust the company, fantastic rep based on their FLA.

But just like Deka proved not great, maybe they and Trojan will too.

I certainly don't like the marketing hyperbole at Trojan these days.

Meantime we have at least 3 brilliant makers in NA AGM market, that's enough for me

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

for AGM why not Lifeline?

Nobody said anything negative about them, top-notch rep

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

I’m waiting for Maine Sail to chime in

If he doesn't he's been positive in the past year several times about Sonnenshein and Deka, in that order, and with the above cautions.

Just today? he mentioned them lasting 13 years with proper care

[belizesailor]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What about Gels?
Why have they fallen out of favor? I think quite possibly my next set may be Gels, it seems as long as you Read and follow the directions, they may have the longest life of all regular lead acid batteries.
Fireflies are to me, too unknown, for the price. I’ll wait before I decide there, but Gels have been around for a long time, and I have to assume they came too early? Before we could routinely actually maintain batteries to the .1V ?
Now that very good programmable chargers exist, the Gel story may have a different ending?

Got great service out of my last gels...12 years. Would buy gels again.

I will wait for all the competing new battery chemistries to sort themselves out in the market before going that route.

[a64pilot]

Originally Posted by john61ct

If he doesn't he's been positive in the past year several times about Sonnenshein and Deka, in that order, and with the above cautions.

Just today? he mentioned them lasting 13 years with proper care

That is what I thought, I thought he had said the would outlast nearly everything else.
So why don’t most people have Gels? The seem to be like AGM’s just longer lived? OK maybe AGMs will accept more abuse, but if I could get a decade out of any bank, why not use that chemistry over one that I only get half the life?
What am I missing here, they can’t be that hard to maintain.

[antoha]

Paul: I bought mine from Westmarine, as now they will price match any other seller even if it’s a crazy price. And Northstar gives a 3 year warranty on these batteries from the date of purchase, and it’s full - not even prorated (one was dinged, WM swapped it out no questions asked). why didn’t Northstar honor it after 1 year? I just reached out to them asking for voltage settings that a solar controller should use (I’m a weekend sailor these days, and the boat’s on a mooring; I have Morningstar PWM 25 duo and MPPT 15 in case I add more solar over the 5 year old 100 watt panel, which now produces probably 80 watts), and they were quite helpful.

[Compass790]

Originally Posted by Maine Sail

Lab cycles are not very representative of real world cycling. I see customers routinely destroy 1200 cycle rated batteries in well under 150 cycles.





What ever DOD you discharge to then back to 100% would be a cycle as a battery manufacturer defines it in a lab. You can have shallow cycles or deep cycles, most have a mix plus PSOC use.





This is a cycle but it is a PSOC cycle or partial state of charge cycle where you're not returning to 100% on every cycle. PSOC use is not good for any lead acid battery but it's a reality for most. We know from PSOC testing that in as little as 30 PSOC cycles, on standard AGM batteries, we can see permanent capacity losses ranging from about 30% to about 8% depending upon brand and quality.



LiFePO4 could care less about PSOC use and in fact it prefers not to be held in the upper SOC ranges but LFP really has a lot of other issues that can limit cycle life. Just like lead acid they need to be charged & used correctly or cycle life suffers.





Even with no cycling there is still calendar aging. The cooler the storage area the better for the battery it will be.





When outside a lab, the more often you get back to 100% SOC, with lead, the longer the life will be. I have seen banks regularly cycled to 50% that are returned to 100% SOC 3-4 times per week easily outlast the battery that's "shallow cycling" between 75% SOC & 90% SOC but only getting back to 100% SOC perhaps bi-weekly or longer. Battery temp also plays a role the warmer the battery over its life the shorter the life it will have..

Thank you very much for your comprehensive reply as I learnt a lot from it.I have a related question for you We got given some used Crown Cr 225amp 6v deep cycle batteries but can only fit 2 on our boat so want to store another pair whilst preserving their life to the utmost for as many years as possible.
Are we better to charge them every 6 mths as Trojan recommends for its T105 deep cycle or leave them on permanent float at 13.5v? Or you can recommend a float voltage for permanent storage. I cannot afford a charger with all the bells & whistles. I got your point about storing at cooler temp.
Thanks if you have the time to advise.

[john61ct]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

So why don’t most people have Gels?
…
What am I missing here, they can’t be that hard to maintain.

As I said

Originally Posted by john61ct

They just got overshadowed by AGM hype.

Combined with people not realizing just how important it is to keep to the spec'd charge profiles.

Herd mentality thunders along, can't be diverted by a few voices of rationality

[daletournier]

Originally Posted by a64pilot

What about Gels?
Why have they fallen out of favor? I think quite possibly my next set may be Gels, it seems as long as you Read and follow the directions, they may have the longest life of all regular lead acid batteries.
Fireflies are to me, too unknown, for the price. I’ll wait before I decide there, but Gels have been around for a long time, and I have to assume they came too early? Before we could routinely actually maintain batteries to the .1V ?
Now that very good programmable chargers exist, the Gel story may have a different ending?

My concern with gels is what Dh said, the cost of making a mistake. I've had a balmar reg fail and a solar reg fail, my T105's shake this off, I've seen expensive gels not cope as well.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by daletournier

My concern with gels is what Dh said, the cost of making a mistake. I've had a balmar reg fail and a solar reg fail, my T105's shake this off, I've seen expensive gels not cope as well.

Indeed - stupid operator is not the only risk. Gear malfunctions and fails. Lithium is protected by BMS - so long as THAT doesn't fail. Gels are at the mercy of several different items of gear, are very vulnerable to any overcharging incident, and once they've been damaged, very expensive to replace. Considering the cost compared to LiFePo, what's the point?

Golf cart batts far more tolerant, and far cheaper to replace if you do manage to kill them - a really good combination.

[Pete7]

Originally Posted by john61ct

OK, yes fine for those for whom they're fine, like Wally's. 8-)

What is a Wally?

I used to run my dive ribs like this. Little use and therefore charging during the winter, only charged from an outboard or diesel engines, finally very hard ride if the sea was rough. The solution, cheap batteries and changed often, every 3 years tops and it worked. Keep the receipt and it they failed before hand back to the retailer for a replacement. There are lots of folks who run there yachts like this.

If a pair of El cheapo ordinary batteries cost £130 and last 3 years, well that compares quite well against a pair of T105s at £300 in the UK and may last 6 years? oh and the El cheapo's are covered by a waranty. I would like to see someone get a warranty replacement for a 5 year old T105.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by Pete7

What is a Wally?

I used to run my dive ribs like this. Little use and therefore charging during the winter, only charged from an outboard or diesel engines, finally very hard ride if the sea was rough. The solution, cheap batteries and changed often, every 3 years tops and it worked. Keep the receipt and it they failed before hand back to the retailer for a replacement. There are lots of folks who run there yachts like this.

If a pair of El cheapo ordinary batteries cost £130 and last 3 years, well that compares quite well against a pair of T105s at £300 in the UK and may last 6 years? oh and the El cheapo's are covered by a waranty. I would like to see someone get a warranty replacement for a 5 year old T105.

Sure. Makes perfect sense. People who don't deep cycle their batteries often, don't need deep cycle batteries. That's why so many leisure batteries are sold. I know I called them "carp", but what I really meant was --- for off grid cruising, living aboard at anchor, sailing across oceans, etc. For light weekend use, or people who cruise mostly from marina to marina, they're well suited, for the reasons Pete explains.

[gauvins]

Many interesting comments.

Ok. Trojans 6v are readily available in France. For now I am committed (have purchased) traditional 12v batteries, but will consider moving to golf batteries when they need to be replaced.

What would be the consequences? Will this require a different regulator (currently Balmar Dual + some obscure brand for our panels). Do we need different peripherals to manage them?

Our use case is living at anchor 2 months per year.

[Dockhead]

Originally Posted by gauvins

Many interesting comments.

Ok. Trojans 6v are readily available in France. For now I am committed (have purchased) traditional 12v batteries, but will consider moving to golf batteries when they need to be replaced.

What would be the consequences? Will this require a different regulator (currently Balmar Dual + some obscure brand for our panels). Do we need different peripherals to manage them?

Our use case is living at anchor 2 months per year.

Nothing special required. You wire two golf cart batteries in series to get 12v, or four to get 24v.