Who has Lithium Batteries?

[kmacdonald]

Originally Posted by ThereAndBack

Battleborn batteries are warrantied as drop in replacements for LA batteries. You don't have to change your charge sources. I use them. They work.

I didn't know Battleborns could limit charge current of a stock alternator. Learn something new everyday.

[hzcruiser]

Originally Posted by Mike OReilly

I love the idea of LiFePO4, but when I look at the cost it is hard to justify.

To replace my 320 amp-hr bank I'd need to spend about $3500 US (so ~$4500 CND). This compares to about $500 US for similar amp-hr golf cart batteries. (Defender prices)

I understand you can more deeply discharge lithium, and the weight saving would be nice, but I bet the typical cruiser will find this price difference hard to justify.

I thought you've been part of some of the previous threads about LFP batt on board, Mike? If so, you should know better than just comparing price per Ah of the name plate capacities.


It's not just that you need less capacity, it's also less weight, faster charge and recharge (read: less alternator time) and most of all: number of recharge cycles.

[ThereAndBack]

Originally Posted by kmacdonald

I didn't know Battleborns could limit charge current of a stock alternator. Learn something new everyday.

If your alternator cannot handle it, DC to DC chargers are cheap and easy to install, certainly less than changing out all the charge sources.

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by ThereAndBack

Battleborn batteries are warrantied as drop in replacements for LA batteries. You don't have to change your charge sources. I use them. They work.

Care needs to be taken with alternators charging lithium batteries for two reasons:

1) They will accept more charge current than a similarly sized lead acid battery so mechanically cooled alternators running at slow speed can overheat. This requires a circuit with an alternator temperature input to prevent.

2) When the BMS determines the batteries are charged, the sudden disconnection of the charge circuit creates an overvoltage which will burn out the alternators regulator. Your alternator needs a smart regulator, alternator protection device or have other lead acid batteries being charged at the same time to prevent this.

[Mike OReilly]

Originally Posted by hzcruiser

I thought you've been part of some of the previous threads about LFP batt on board, Mike? If so, you should know better than just comparing price per Ah of the name plate capacities.

It's not just that you need less capacity, it's also less weight, faster charge and recharge (read: less alternator time) and most of all: number of recharge cycles.

I don't think so ... I certainly have no experience with these batteries, so not sure what I could contribute.

I thought I was acknowledging the apples to oranges comparison when I wrote: "I understand you can more deeply discharge lithium, and the weight saving would be nice, but I bet the typical cruiser will find this price difference hard to justify."

I'm not trying to argue for or against these batteries. I'm just saying it's going to be a hard sell for most cruisers given the significantly higher up front cost.

[kmacdonald]

The true value of lithium is in the weight savings , and fast and efficient charging. Less engine run time to charge equates to a lot of money. Less solar needed. This can be a big issue for boats limited in real estate for solar panels.

In off grid home application, lithium is the clear cost efficient battery technology.

[sailorboy1]

this thread seems to have really drifted off the topic of the insurance impact

[Maine Sail]

Originally Posted by ThereAndBack

Battleborn batteries are warrantied as drop in replacements for LA batteries. You don't have to change your charge sources. I use them. They work.

You really need to be careful when an drop-in manufacturer tells you a battery is a drop-in replacement for lead acid.

- A lead acid bank can't disconnect itself from the vessel, a drop-in LFP battery can.

- A lead acid bank can be charged below freezing, LiFePO4 cannot be.

- A lead acid bank won't create a voltage transient, that can blow alternator diodes or damage sensitive electronics when it disconnects from the vessel, because it can't.

- A lead acid bank has no current limit for bow thrusters, engine starting larger inverters etc. a drop-in battery definitely has a maximum discharge and recharge current limit.

- A lead acid bank can't disconnect itself from the vessel if the BMS over-heats, because it does not have a BMS.

- Some insurers are disallowing LiFePO4, I don't know any who do this for lead acid.

A drop-in LiFePO4 bank literally melted/cooked this guys stock Hitachi alternator just two weeks ago.

"But they said they were drop-in?"

[NPCampbell]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

this thread seems to have really drifted off the topic of the insurance impact

LFP and Lithium Titanate are pretty safe ... maybe safer than lead acid. The thermal runaway temperatures for both are north of 200C. While a change in temperature with a lead acid battery on a float charge can induce thermal runaway. However, lead acid batteries aren't going to catch fire like a lithium battery and the replacement cost is significantly cheaper. Maybe that is the driving factor?

[joelhemington]

Originally Posted by ThereAndBack

Battleborn batteries are warrantied as drop in replacements for LA batteries. You don't have to change your charge sources. I use them. They work.

Yep and they're also about a hundred bucks cheaper than the Dragonflys both made in Reno. Nevada by "Mericans"

[CapnBazza]

Originally Posted by sailorboy1

I bet a lot of underwriters would give push back if they thought about asking. My understanding is the review of the ABYC addition for LFP has been floating around for years.

I voted, but think your poll would have been better by asking if those cruisers with LFP have comp insurance and does the ins company know they do and cover for it.

It appears that LiFePO4 batteries are at least as safe as the better lead/acid old technology ones still in common use. I put the misinformed sods spreading rumours to the contrary in the same basket as the “Covid19 is a hoax” mob.

[sailorboy1]

I thought that thread was about insurance companies position on lithium batteries. Guess not.

[CaptainRivet]

Originally Posted by TabbyCat

Some underwriters are giving us some pushback on Lithium batteries. They think they are dangerous. I expect there is a difference in safety between off the shelf name brand installations with BMS and do it yourself installations, but let's not get into that debate. What's I'm hoping for is collect some data on what percent of ACTIVE CRUISERS (no daysailors, please) have lithium batteries. So it's as important to answer either way, whether you have them or you don't have them. (My personal opinion is that a large number of cruisers have them, and that they are now reliable and safe, although some early first generation installations may not have been safe.)

1. Cruiser with "Traditional" (non Lithium) house & starter batteries
2. Cruiser with Lithium House batteries
3. Cruiser with Lithium Starter battery
4. Cruiser with Lithium House & Starter batteries
5. Cruiser with Lithium battery powered vessel

You won’t find many sailors with lithium as starter and house bank. Simple reason is if your lithium battery is full and switches off to protect from overload your alternator (if engine is running) or your wind generator controller needs a dump load so they don’t get damaged which is in 99.9% your lead or AGM starter battery.

Regarding the lead fans:
You can just use of a 100AH battery:
20% of a flooded lead acid like Trojan golf car ones, means 20AH for around 300-500 cycles. Charge time from empty to full long as they cannot take much current. 2nd if your overblow valve gets clocked they can explode. Happend to a friend of mine. Acid bomb, much worse then a battery on fire...
50% of an AGM can be used, means 50AH for around 500-700 cycles. Charged times long too, can take higher current then flooded but still limited due to high resistance of the battery. If your voltage regulator of eg your alternator breaks and they get charged with overvoltage they also get a thermal runaway and catch fire...happend to me with my AGM starter and I had to rip it out and toss overboard While at sea to prevent a fire onboard. Never saw BMS on a AGM to protect from that.
80% of a LifePo4 lithium batteries can be used,means 80AH for 2000-3000 cycles. Charge fast with 1C of the battery, means a 100AH battery can be charged with 100A without damage, typical you use 0.5C Max. If they get overvoltage they can get a thermal run away and catch fire like AGMs.
80% of an LTO (lithium titanate oxid) battery can be used, means 80AH for 30000 cycles. They charge super fast with 10C means a 100AH battery can be charged with 1000A. And can be decharged with 10C, means it delivers 1000A for 20min without any problem, voltage drop is around 0.5V then. Safest battery on the planet, you can even drill into the battery while using it, no fire nothing,it just works. Charging below 0 degrees no problem, they work in Antarctica. if you run it down to 0 V you can charge it, yes they maybe loose 1000 of their 30000cycles but they work again properly and have full capacity. Challenge for 12V is each cell has 2,3V and you can only get raw cells and have to put your battery together yourself. But every sailor who manages his boat electric himself can do this easily.

[Bundyon]

I have only just this week, removed my 5 Full River 120ah deep cycles @ around 35kg's ea and my 750cca lead acid start battery @ around 25kg's.
I researched my options, looked very close at very heavy duty 6v deep cycles @ around 50kg's each, I asked as many fellow cruisers as I could on what type of batteries they are running and their thoughts on their systems. The vast majority that weren't running lithium wished they were but cost was the killer.
After much deliberation, I bit the bullet and went for an Australian brand of lithium batteries, (iTechworld) I chose 8 of their i120x for my house batteries and one of their lithium 1420cca starter batteries. These batteries weigh around 12kg's ea and were a joy to install after nearly killing my back removing my deep cycles. (Installed under the bunk in the aft cabin). I am also running the manufacturers DC/DC charger. Apparently the BMS fitted to these batteries is the latest & addresses most of the problems/ issues found on previous BMS. They are a "drop straight in" and can use normal style battery chargers.
I have also gone to two lead acid heavy duty start batteries (N200) @ 55kg's ea, to hook up in series to run my 24v Windlass and bow thruster, I am currently installing a 24v alternator for this system. I techworld state you cannot wire up their batteries in series, not sure if this is the same for all lithium set ups ?
My insurance company has no problem with this recent install.
I will monitor this set up closely over the next few months and report back.
Probably lucky we are virtually locked down, I now can't afford to go anywhere!!!

[billgewater]

I have lead acid batteries and in spite of considerable price reductions, it just isn't high on my list of "must do" program.
If it is working - maintain it until it can't be effectively salvaged.

But the general move towards alternatives is certainly well under way. We now have very good solar systems as well. Lurking in the background is the electric motor propulsion possibilities. But boats differ so greatly that what is great for one is pointless for another.
As for insurance - the bane of boat ownership - it might be useful if manufacturers of batteries provided some coding/certification for insurance purposes. I'm not even vaguely informed of what would be required but a few fires scares the bejesus out of many potential users and surely the insurance companies. If you believe that this is totally impractical just consider what marine insurance companies require in terms of SS rigging replacement etc.
I don't own an electric car but surely they must have agreed safety features/certification/charging criteria in the industry, so why not for boats?
I believe we need better reassurance that we are not throwing money at a marginally valuable acquisition.